Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

ashley.rolfmore.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 305 posts

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#251

Post by sulandor »

6P58r3MXJSLi wrote: post #104
b3lvedere wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a privilige it must be to be able to have a job where you can stand up and leave when your psyche can't handle it. Ever done tech support for ten hours a day? :)

I've done tech support for years, since 1996. Your assumptions are also very wrong, my psyche could kill you, I simply know what I want on my side and you on your side, we have to meet somewhere in the middle, otherwise it's not listening, it's abuse. If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody will. Your view is US centric, I live in Europe, we have rights, we can't be fired for having opinions. We don't work 10 hour…

It's a somewhat preoccupied and privileged pov.

There absolutely are 10h+ workdays in europe where ppl are not treated well.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#252

Post by [deleted] »

donatj wrote: post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

[deleted]

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#253

Post by godelski »

jdthedisciple wrote: post #66
digi59404 wrote: post #54

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. Not sure it's ever good to assume this beforehand though. Most things are negotiable, if you know how to negotiate right.

Still a good thing to mention as lots of people think they can continue arguing and convince someone else. That always ends up in a fight.

Though one strategy I've learned is I'll explicitly tell people what will change my mind. I think this has a few benefits.

  1) it helps *me* avoid being too stubborn and ensure my mind *can* be changed [0]
  2) it helps the other person know what to focus on and direct their arguments [1]
  3) it signals to the other person that I'm making a good effort and encourages them to do the same
It's not bulletproof, nothing is, but I find it helpful. When it's not helpful I find it is informative about the type of conversation I'm having. It's far more likely to fail on the internet than in person, which I think says something...

[0] were always, to some degree, wrong. So your mind should always be able to be changed. You're not omniscient

[1] often we talk past one another rather than against. Because we have different base assumptions that have been... assumed... and so we assume this assumption is shared. That's often a point of breakdown

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#254

Post by wak90 »

gbjw wrote: post #237
Isamu wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found that people who speak indirectly don’t agree that they are indirect, have no idea why you think they are not direct. It’s so ingrained it can’t be seen. I have extreme examples from friends, where somehow they “hear” the opposite of what I say because they are always looking for the indirect meaning, not what you are saying. Fun example from a friend: his family were extremely direct but his girlfriend’s…

> Fun example from a friend: his family were extremely direct but his girlfriend’s family was very indirect. As a young naive guy he was having dinner with his girlfriend’s family and her father asked: “is there any salt” and my friend looked up at the glass salt shaker and said “yes” and continued with his meal. Are we supposed to side with your friend here? The fact that he couldn't infer that the father might want…

Every dumbass divorced Dad "she asked if the wash was done and I said yes"

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#255

Post by Ilaurens »

godelski wrote: post #204
donatj wrote: post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

> The number of times I see my words interpreted as though my choice in words had been imprecise That's because the words you use are imprecise and have multiple valid interpretations. Not because a lack of effort on your part but because that's how natural languages work. Natural languages are extremely fuzzy. Every single word is overloaded. It's why it's important to speak you your audience. The goal of the listen…

I think you are spot on and a lot of other comments sharing "I'm also so precise, and people don't get it and it's frustrating" are in fact the problem. It's arrogant to think you're that eloquent that there is not other interpretation to your words, and the problem must be with the reader. It only results in more inefficiency if you stick to that mindset.

These are probably the same people that say "everyone else's code smells" and think only they write the perfect code.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#256

Post by JohnMakin »

donatj wrote: post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

> The number of times I see my words interpreted as though my choice in words had been imprecise is a near constant source of pain, particularly in the workspace. I might be on the spectrum, I am undiagnosed.

I often deal with the same, I am usually quite literal in both what I say/mean and what I hear from people. The latter I've got a lot better with, but communication can practically be impossible sometimes - neurotypical people have an insane network of filters and biases (not saying these dont exist elsewhere, just from my pov) that a message goes through before they decide what they "think" you meant, rather than just interpreting the actual words said as they were said.

It's a lot like one of my favorite tweets, something like:

Person X: "I love pancakes!" Random Twitter guy: "SO THEN YOU'RE SAYING YOU HATE WAFFLES???"

In work situations though, I feel AI has actually helped clarify what I "mean" a lot better than I could, at least with the people that typically used to constantly misunderstand me (which felt like on purpose at times).

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#257

Post by j_w »

whimblepop wrote: post #226
crispyambulance wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The documentation was complete, correct, and relatively terse. Less than a page. No, that's YOUR IMPRESSION of your own writing. There are many reasons why others might not find what you wrote sufficient to understand it. You boss ran it through AI for a reason and that reason was most likely because it the document was not understandable or perhaps confusing. Did the document have usage examples? Did it explain co…

> There are many reasons why others might not find what you wrote sufficient to understand it. You boss ran it through AI for a reason and that reason was most likely because it the document was not understandable or perhaps confusing. It could also be because their manager is less technical. It's not unusual in my life for a PM to try to "rephrase" or restate things I've written in order to make them "easier to unde…

PM: "X party needs to know about Y thing"

"Tell them [very specific answer targeted at X party]"

PM: "They are still asking about Y, see their response with the follow up question"

Then in the original send of [specific thing] PM has transformed it into [something else]. X party has followed up with a question that was answered by [specific thing]. Yes PM you might have been confused but you weren't the target.

This cycle happens very often.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#258

Post by busyant »

balamatom wrote: post #137
busyant wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The points in # 2 are profound. I plan on sending this to someone who is dear to me. Maybe he will "listen" to it, too. Thank you.

Let us know how that goes, telling someone who is defending themself from you how they should "Be More Vulnerable!"

it's my son. he's young, bright, but puts up defenses to protect his perceived vulnerabilities. I try to explain to him that exposing your vulnerabilities humanizes you... at least it does to the type of people I admire.

but sometimes being 19 is difficult in that way.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#259

Post by pixl97 »

digi59404 wrote: post #173
jdthedisciple wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. Not sure it's ever good to assume this beforehand though. Most things are negotiable, if you know how to negotiate right.

I believe you’re right, it’s not great to assume this beforehand. Many things are negotiable, but there are a whole lot of things that aren’t. When you’re faced with convincing someone of $TruthA or $FactA and one of those two collides with a persons worldview, makes them uncomfortable, or causes them pain. Sometimes that truth or fact will be thrown out because of its ramifications. For example, if we’re in Iowa, an…

>For example, if we’re in Iowa, and you prove to me that plastic straws don’t kill turtles..

Black swans.

Quite often the they are telling a correct truth, but failing to give it proper scope. For example no turtle in Iowa falls victim to straws because of these species. It's the difference between "There are no black swans in ______" and "There are no black swans"

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#260

Post by johnnyanmac »

digi59404 wrote: post #54

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept.

I think this is what causes many people (software or otherwise" to shut down. Listening is important but a 2-way street. Someone choosing not to listen to you turns a discussion into a demand.

And "demands" are where the technical/Non-technical split get tricky . Does a doctor listen to some executive to do a thing that betrays their parient and oath? Less seriously, does a programmer listen to a product manager to prioritize B over A (A in which turns into a showstopper in a few weeks' time), or try to go around them to emphasize A needs work now (remember, PM is assumedly not accepting it anymore)?

Discussions devolving into demands into your craft is the worst.

Post reply on HN