Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#251

Post by iy56 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:28 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #198

_casperc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not helping people because of their race, so why use that to select who gets help? There are rich black people as well as there are poor white people.

Think of this mathematically. We did something very wrong at time T = 0. It is a matter of fact that economic wrongs are self-perpetuating and long-lived. Thus, at time T = 450, you can isolate, statistically, some economic disadvantage in any black person who can trace their lineage back as being affected by that original wrong at T = 0. It doesn't matter how rich they are--they would be incrementally richer had tha…

The harms and benefits you are talking about are not quantifiable in a commonly-agreed-upon way. I think that's a prerequisite for the kind of analysis you want to do.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#252

Post by danilocampos » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #183

vec wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the absolutely most qualified person for a whole bunch of things is disproportionately often white and male. And even if we as a society wake up tomorrow magically not racist or sexist at all, that will be the case for the foreseeable future simply because white men have disproportionate amounts of money and connections. Hiring through AA is _intentionally_ suboptimal. The whole point is to give members of d…

Instead we discriminate against the poor white guy from the ghetto growing up with a single mom? Brilliant. That guy had none of the supposed white male advantages. Hire/accept people based on their merits. If you want to take into account overcoming adversity that's fine with me. But picking someone based on the color of their skin, be it white, black, or other, is wrong, and it's racist.

> That guy had none of the supposed white male advantages.

Merely looking like those who hold power is, in fact, a huge advantage.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#253

Post by ta12121 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:44 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #233

ta12121 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination. If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage than skin color.

they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage than skin color What would you suggest? All methods of trying to measure "disadvantage-ness" will be flawed (including race/ethnicity ones). I mentioned this in this comment http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4758649

Yes, they will all be flawed, but not all of them will be as flawed as skin color. Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it's OK to do something easy and bad.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#254

Post by WiseWeasel » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:44 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #117

rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

Let's accept that rational; but that does leave one question: when does this end? If we have no way to measure the damage then how do we measure the resolution of the damage? Do we continue this for 5, 10, 50, 100, 500 years? Or do we simply never end it? Do we try to "correct" it so there are literally no poor people of a particular ethnicity? How realistic is that?

It ends when it is politically expedient to do so. However, apart from demographic data indicating black people are no longer disadvantaged with respect to white people, I don't see what could drive such a change.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#255

Post by ta12121 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 10:47 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #223

ta12121 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination. If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage than skin color.

> If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination. How much money do you think a few generations' of slavery is worth? > If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage tha…

    How much money do you think a few generations' of slavery is worth?

I don't know. How many years of race based discrimination is it worth?

    Would you like to suggest one?

As many others in this thread have suggested: actual economic disadvantages, such as poverty, single parent household, etc...

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#256

Post by giardini » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:13 PM UTC

ta12121 wrote: post #166

rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination. If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage than skin color.

Well, in that case, we should start first with the American Indians. First off, we'll give reparations for all those who never saw a white man but died of smallpox - I think giving them back California, New York, Florida, Ohio, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa, and New Hampshire might start to make up for that.

Then we could get to the indians who actually _met_ someone of European descent and were harmed as a result.

By the time we're finished with the indians we can give what's left to other less disadvantaged groups.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#257

Post by nacker » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:20 PM UTC

AnIrishDuck wrote: post #246

alecst wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously not every policy based on race is racist, but affirmative action does advance a particular set of races. Call it whatever you want, but I think what the above poster has said is that to advance one race is to handicap another.

I'd like to point out that affirmative action directly leads to more racism. I've heard many racists assume that affirmative action is the sole reason someone (is in college|has that government job|got that scholarship).

Agreed. This is the Achilles Heel of affirmative action. It actually undermines the achievements of the favored group. For instance, many people believe that Obama would not be president if he were not half black. How accurate that belief is is certainly open to question, but it's not racist to think so.

In any case, according to this research, Obama's first term didn't improve racist attitudes in America.

Prejudice has risen since 2008 Obama victory:

https://bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2012/10/27/poll-majority...

Remember, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#258

Post by rayiner » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:23 PM UTC

ta12121 wrote: post #255

saraid216 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination. How much money do you think a few generations' of slavery is worth? > If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage tha…

How much money do you think a few generations' of slavery is worth? I don't know. How many years of race based discrimination is it worth? Would you like to suggest one? As many others in this thread have suggested: actual economic disadvantages, such as poverty, single parent household, etc...

So my grandfather on my mom's side was a doctor and a lawyer. My mom's siblings include a couple of doctors, a military officer, a business executive, etc. My mom was herself a journalist, and of her sons I'm a lawyer and my brother is a banker. This is not a coincidence. Privilege is passed down from generation to generation, not just in money, but in social status, connections, values, culture, insight, motivation, outlook, etc.

At the time my grandfather was getting his medical degree and building his law library (in the 1930's and 1940's--he had my mom at a late age), blacks in this country were systematically oppressed. They were prevented from voting, they were prevented from going to school, they were prevented from holding anything more than menial jobs. At the time my grandfather was building a social inheritance to pass down to his children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, blacks were being attacked with firehoses by the government for daring to fight for the barest of equal rights.

My grandfather has been dead for more than 20 years, but his legacy is going to reach out to at least another generation. When my little girl asks why she should do her homework, I will tell her about her great grandfather, her grand uncles and aunts, and how she should study hard so she can be a doctor like them. So too does the legacy of institutional discrimination reach out over the generations.

A poor white person and a poor black person (assuming they can trace their history back to the slaves) are not in the same boat. One is in his plight because of the vagracies of the economy, the luck of the draw, etc. For the other, at least part of his socioeconomic situation, some identifiable component, can be traced back to the systematic discrimination and oppression suffered by his ancestors at the hands of the still-extant state and federal governments.

So no, just basing efforts on socioeconomics generally is not enough. It's not the same.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#259

Post by rayiner » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:24 PM UTC

iy56 wrote: post #251

rayiner wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of this mathematically. We did something very wrong at time T = 0. It is a matter of fact that economic wrongs are self-perpetuating and long-lived. Thus, at time T = 450, you can isolate, statistically, some economic disadvantage in any black person who can trace their lineage back as being affected by that original wrong at T = 0. It doesn't matter how rich they are--they would be incrementally richer had tha…

The harms and benefits you are talking about are not quantifiable in a commonly-agreed-upon way. I think that's a prerequisite for the kind of analysis you want to do.

This is a common flaw in reasoning--just because harms or benefits are not easily quantifiable does not mean that they should be assumed to be zero.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#260

Post by dkrich » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 11:34 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43

dkrich wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just like slabs of thick bedrock in lower New York correlate with Obama votes, since it enabled large highrises to be constructed in a small, densely populated area. How far back are we willing to go to draw these correlations?

IT was more than a correlation. He traced the connection. What has bedrock to do with New York voters? I'd be interested to hear that story.

Check an electoral map. Urban centers are democratic strongholds. In fact they are the only part of the map that matters for dems. The black belt has no impact on the presidential election. I have no idea why the author is calling sparsely populated, poor minority counties a "secret weapon."

I guess nancy pelosi has the formation of gold in northern California to thank for her success?