The various "OMG MICROPLASTICS" studies always smacked of alarmism. No one has actually identified tangible harms from microplastics; it's just taken as a given that they are bad. So this fueled a bunch of studies that tried to find them everywhere. Even the authors of this study go to great pains to not challenge the dogma that microplastics are existentially terrifying. So I fully expect we'll still be panicking ov…
Testosterone is down by about half since 1970. (Unclear if related, but I think a bunch of these plastics are endocrine disruptors.)
Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
251–260 of 282 posts
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#252The various "OMG MICROPLASTICS" studies always smacked of alarmism. No one has actually identified tangible harms from microplastics; it's just taken as a given that they are bad. So this fueled a bunch of studies that tried to find them everywhere. Even the authors of this study go to great pains to not challenge the dogma that microplastics are existentially terrifying. So I fully expect we'll still be panicking ov…
Testosterone is down by about half since 1970. (Unclear if related, but I think a bunch of these plastics are endocrine disruptors.)
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many papers in this field are missing obvious controls, but you’re correct that controls alone are insufficient to solve this problem. When you are taking measurements at the detection limit of any molecule that is widespread in the environment, you are going to have a difficult time of distinguishing signal from background. This requires sampling and replication and rigorous application of statistical inference. > A…
You’re still bringing up different issues than this article we are commenting on. > There’s no such thing as “overestimating in baseline samples” What do you mean? Contamination and mis-measurement of control samples is a thing that actually happens all the time, and invalidates experiments when discovered. > What you’re trying to say is that if there’s a chemical everywhere, the prevalence makes it harder to claim t…
The entire point of a control is to test for that sort of contamination (or more generally, for malfunctions in the experimental workflow). In the case of a negative control, specifically, you're looking for an "positive" where one should not exist. If an experiment is set up such that you can obtain differential contamination in the controls but not the experimental arms, as you've described, then the entire experiment is invalid.
> What I was trying to say is that if the control is either mis-measured, for example by accidentally counting stearates as microplastics, or contaminated, then the summary outcome may underestimate or understate the prevalence of microplastics in the test sample, even though the measurement over-estimated it.
The control cannot be "mis-measured", any more or less than the other arms can be "mis-measured". You treat them identically, otherwise the control is not a control. Neither example you've given are exceptions: if the assay mistakes chemical B for chemical A, then it will also do so for the non-controls. If the experimental process contaminates the controls, it will also contaminate the non-controls.
What you're missing is that there's no absolute "correct" measurement -- yes, the control may itself be contaminated with something you don't even know about, thus "understating" the absolute measurement of whatever thing you're looking for, but the absolute measurement was never the goal. You're looking for between-group differences, nothing more.
Just to make it clearer, if I were going to run an extremely naïve experiment of this sort (i.e. detection of trace chemical contamination C via super-sensitive assay A) with any hope of validity, I'd want to do multiple replications of a dilution series, each with independent negative and positive controls. I'd then use something like ANOVA to look for significant deviations across the group means. This is like the "science 101" version of the experimental design. Any failure of any control means the experiment goes in the trash. Any "significant" result that doesn't follow the expected dilution series patterns, again, goes in the trash.
(This is, of course, after doing everything you can to mitigate for baseline levels of the contaminant in the lab environment, which is a process that itself probably requires multiple failed iterations of the experiment I just described.)
Most of the plastic contamination papers I have read are far, far from even that naïve baseline.
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's incredible. Though the effect of this will be claims that microplastics don't exist while no one in that case claimed that murders didn't happen. Happy to have learned about an interesting historical oddity either way.
I don't think anyone will claim microplastics don't exist, but people will definitely be skeptical of articles about how many there, and where they're found. At worst, I'd expect to see people disregarding the threat, not disregarding the presence of the microplastics themselves.
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#255Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re still bringing up different issues than this article we are commenting on. > There’s no such thing as “overestimating in baseline samples” What do you mean? Contamination and mis-measurement of control samples is a thing that actually happens all the time, and invalidates experiments when discovered. > What you’re trying to say is that if there’s a chemical everywhere, the prevalence makes it harder to claim t…
> What do you mean? Contamination and mis-measurement of control samples is a thing that actually happens all the time, and invalidates experiments when discovered. The entire point of a control is to test for that sort of contamination (or more generally, for malfunctions in the experimental workflow). In the case of a negative control, specifically, you're looking for an "positive" where one should not exist. If an…
No, the point of a control is to give you a reference point that shares all the systemic biases and unknown unknowns, not to detect those biases. If you follow the same procedure on a known null and on your experiment and observe an effect, assuming you really did exactly the same thing except the studied intervention, you can subtract out the bias.
This one example of technical jargon diverging from colloquial or intuitive use, and it is the type of thing people who haven't had statistics or scientific process education often struggle with because they keep applying their colloquial intuitions.
You talk like you understand this on the rest of the comment so I'm confused by this framing, and the person you are replying to points out (in my reading ) that contamination of the control 1) does happen in practice (in the sense that there was an accidental intervention) and 2) if the gloves contaminated both the measurements and control the same way then the control is exactly serving it's purposes
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#257Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s why you’re supposed to submit an unused swab with the samples, so that they can make sure the swab itself isn’t the source.
That only works if both swabs suffered the same contamination. If the contamination is sporadic, then it won't show.
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it doesn’t. What you’re describing is an oxymoron.
Please. You don't get special treatment for being a skeptic. Either you have the credentials or you don't. Prove you're qualified.
Being certain, on the other hand, requires an assumption that you are a subject expert.
But this is all moot anyway because you’re constructing an elaborate strawman here. The original point was that the GP (possibly you?) trusts SWE more than others because they built AI. And I said building databases doesn’t make you smart at the subject loaded into the database.
Really, this whole premise of SWEs assuming expertise on subjects they’ve trained AI on says more about the Dunning-Kruger effect than anything of value in our little tangent.
Re: Nitrile and latex gloves may cause overestimation of microplastics
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
Testosterone is down by about half since 1970. (Unclear if related, but I think a bunch of these plastics are endocrine disruptors.)
Testosterone has not fallen. That idea is mainly a result of bad sampling and incomparable measurements. See: https://xcancel.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/19804871302092350...