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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#251

Post by ssl-3 »

cromka wrote: post #10
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

Please don't project the laws and norms of Poland onto the US.

The US is a very big place. And in this place, we have fifty (!) different states. That's fifty different sets of rules relating to owning and driving cars -- nearly twice as many as the EU has member nations.

A Florida judge might decide that red light camera tickets are unconstitutional, while an Arizona judge might decide that they're completely OK. These two very different rulings can co-exist, without conflict, potentially forever.

Each state doing their own thing independently of the others is just how we roll here.

A sane and rational person might reasonably conclude that this situation is literally insane -- and they may be right! -- but it is this way anyway.

(And it is this way by design.)

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#252

Post by devman0 »

horsawlarway wrote: post #247
moduspol wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the same logic apply to parking tickets?

possibly, although I suspect the quote from above: > Although nominally civil, traffic infraction proceedings retain every substantive hallmark of criminal prosecution... Is going to matter here. A moving violation (ex: red light) is quite different from a non-moving violation (ex: parking) in how they're handled, and often how they're classified. Ex - my in state, a moving violation is a criminal misdemeanor, while…

Idk how Florida handles it but several states citations issued by red light cameras and those issued by officers are handled entirely differently for the exact reason you mention. Camera citations are entirely civil, you don't get points against your license. If a cop issues the ticket it does become a misdemeanor moving violation.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#253

Post by hamdingers »

fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this.

Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance.

Hopefully other states can follow this pattern. Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#254

Post by interestpiqued »

spunker540 wrote: post #232
causal wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Parking is leaving your possession somewhere and should apply to the registered owner. It is not illegal to own a car that someone else used to run a red light.

No. Running a red light is when your possession crosses an intersection while the light is red, and should apply to the registered owner.

If I lend a neighbor my kitchen knife and they murder someone with it, should I be liable?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#255

Post by Drunk_Engineer »

limagnolia wrote: post #221
archontes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, we have the fifth amendment, and the right not to divulge any information whatsoever unless we're granted immunity. It is enough to say absolutely nothing, and request the government to prove its case. If someone shot a person with my gun, I would invoke the fifth amendment, and ask the government to prove who did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Actually, the fifth amendment only protects your right not to incriminate yourself. So you may be called upon to testify against your will against some one else (With some limited protections for spouses and such). However, if you were in fact the one driving, you can plead the fifth, and they cannot use that fact against you to prove it was in fact you driving- they have to prove that independently. (EDIT: I should…

> they cannot use that fact against you to prove it was in fact you driving- they have to prove that independently.

5th amendment protections are much weaker for civil cases though.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#256

Post by throwway120385 »

crote wrote: post #81
eweise wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four people in my family drive my car. I'm supposed to track that? sure.

Your car, your problem. Either get someone to fess up, or take responsibility yourself and stop loaning it out. There really is no difference between "who drove through a red light" and "who scratched the bumper while parking" here - how do you currently solve the latter one?

I know you'd like it to work that way, but it doesn't in most jurisdictions in the US.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#257

Post by rootusrootus »

tootie wrote: post #241
fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

As someone who lives next to an intersection where cars routinely run red lights, this truly sucks and I hope it gets overturned. I understand the judge's reasoning, but running red lights is dangerous and we need much stricter enforcement.

I people are routinely running a red for a particular intersection, it seems likely that there is a design problem with the intersection or the signaling. Improving safety would be fixing the underlying problem.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#258

Post by xeromal »

crote wrote: post #150
floren wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the reason for the ruling is that if your teen runs a red, YOU get points on your license.

Not if the teen takes responsibility. So don't loan out your car to people who aren't willing to take responsibility for their actions. Surely that's not a massive burden?

Is that just?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#259

Post by throwway120385 »

crote wrote: post #143
HDThoreaun wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except no, that is not how it works. People get moving violation tickets, not cars.

This is exactly how it works in plenty of countries, actually! The US is the outlier here. In practice people have zero trouble figuring out which family member was driving - just like they have no trouble getting a kid to fess up to scratching the bumper while backing up into their own garage.

The burden is on you to explain why the US should do things the way other countries do. What's better for everyone about that? Why should we change our notion of justice to make you feel better about it?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#260

Post by nubg »

quickthrowman wrote: post #212
daveoc64 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard for this in the UK is that you should make a reasonable effort to work out who was driving. e.g. checking your calendar/diary, looking through receipts or bank statements to work out where you likely were. There's also a requirement that a request for information is sent within 14 days for minor incidents like speeding or red light violations, so it's not like you have to work out who was driving on a Tu…

That’s not how it works in the United States. I was driving my (female) partner’s car and received a citation. I gave the cop my license but he pulled the owner’s (my female partner) driving record using her vehicle’s license plate (is what I’m guessing happened) and issued her the citation instead of me. I was very excited since this meant I was going to get away without a citation. I gave her the citation and she c…

Why not just drive under the speed limit and sober instead of giggling about avoiding penalties while endangering us all?

Note that not once did you mention that you were innocent.

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