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CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

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Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes several claims that don't survive scrutiny. "Sanctions to eliminate the competition for Micron" — The October 2022 export controls and YMTC's Entity List designation were part of a sweeping national security policy targeting advanced compute capabilities, not a protectionist carve-out [1]. Multiple allied governments (UK, Australia, Japan, Netherlands) independently reached similar conclusions and…

> Huawei's CFO was indicted for bank fraud related to Iran sanctions violations This is the official US justification. This does not mean that is also true. The Huawei sanctions happened immediately after Huawei had shown their next generation CPU for smartphones, which was better than the next generation CPU shown by Qualcomm, and also immediately after market surveys announced that Huawei will become in a few month…

I appreciate the detailed response, but I think several of your arguments actually undermine your own case on closer inspection.

tl;dr: "Who benefits is what matters, not the official explanation" is how you prove anything you want. Boeing benefits when Airbus has problems, that doesn't mean Boeing sabotaged them. And even on its own terms: Qualcomm collected royalties from Huawei on every handset sold (per their 2018 licensing deal), so Qualcomm had direct financial incentive for Huawei to sell more phones, not fewer. The "cui bono" doesn't even bono the right cui.

On "cui bono" as proof of motive:

"When something like the US sanctions happens, what matters is who is the beneficiary, not which is the official explanation" is a general-purpose conspiracy epistemology that can prove anything. Boeing benefits when Airbus has production problems, that doesn't mean Boeing sabotaged Airbus. Cui bono is a reason to investigate, not a reason to conclude.

But even on your own terms, the timeline doesn't work. You say the Huawei sanctions happened "immediately after" Huawei showed their next-gen CPU. The Kirin 980 was announced at IFA in August 2018 [1]. The Entity List designation came in May 2019, nine months later [2]. In the semiconductor industry, nine months is not "immediately after." The Snapdragon 855, which benchmarked significantly faster than the Kirin 980 in CPU and GPU, shipped in December 2018 [3]. If Qualcomm needed government protection from an inferior chip that launched earlier, that's not a very compelling story about competitive threat.

You're right that Huawei was on track to overtake Samsung in smartphone shipments. They hit #2 globally in 2019 [4]. But Huawei's strength was in price-competitive handsets in emerging markets, not in chip design threatening Qualcomm's licensing business. Qualcomm's revenue model is based on patent licensing across the entire industry; Huawei's rise in handset volume actually increased Qualcomm's licensing revenue, since Huawei paid Qualcomm royalties on every handset sold (they signed a patent license agreement in 2018). Qualcomm had financial incentive for Huawei to sell more phones, not fewer.

On "they knew about Iran for years":

You concede the Iran dealings are "probably based on true facts" but argue the timing was convenient. The actual timeline: HSBC's internal probe of the Huawei-Iran transactions began in late 2016, the DOJ investigation built on HSBC's disclosures throughout 2017-2018, and the arrest warrant was issued in August 2018 [5][6]. Criminal investigations of this complexity involving international banking, foreign defendants, and extradition treaties routinely take years. The idea that prosecutors had a ready-made case sitting in a drawer and deployed it at an opportune moment isn't how federal criminal prosecution works. Grand jury proceedings, evidence gathering, and extradition requests have their own institutional momentum and timeline.

Also: "USA has also made deals with Iran and they have not sanctioned themselves" is a non-sequitur. The sanctions against Huawei aren't for "dealing with Iran" in the abstract, they're for bank fraud, i.e., lying to HSBC about the nature of transactions to evade sanctions that were in force at the time. The US government conducting foreign policy with Iran through official channels is categorically different from a private company deceiving banks to circumvent sanctions law.

On YMTC's projected dominance:

You say there were "published prognoses" for YMTC's rapid growth. I don't doubt that bullish analyst projections existed. But even the most optimistic 2022 forecasts projected YMTC reaching perhaps 8-10% of NAND by 2025 [7], which is roughly what actually happened despite the sanctions [8]. "Dominant position" means something like Samsung's 35%. Single-digit-to-low-double-digit share, even at aggressive prices, is "credible new entrant," not "dominant position."

On Apple: You say Apple dropping YMTC before the Entity List "doesn't prove anything, except that Apple management was probably already aware of this outcome." This is unfalsifiable. If Apple dropped them after sanctions: "they were forced to." If Apple dropped them before: "they had inside knowledge." What evidence would you accept that Apple made an independent commercial/reputational risk decision?

On memory prices:

I actually think you have the kernel of a legitimate argument here, and I should have engaged with it more carefully. You're right that the memory market is a tight oligopoly with a documented history of anticompetitive behavior: Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron have literally pled guilty to DRAM price fixing, paying $731 million in criminal fines in the 2000s, and faced renewed price-fixing allegations in 2018 [9]. More vendors would structurally improve this market.

But the distance between "more vendors would be good for competition" and "US sanctions on YMTC caused the current price crisis" remains enormous. Even in your restated version, the counterfactual requires YMTC to have grown large enough by 2024-2025 to serve as a meaningful alternative when Samsung/SK Hynix pivoted to HBM. Given that YMTC actually did reach ~10-13% NAND share by late 2025 even under sanctions [8], and prices still spiked, the evidence suggests the HBM reallocation would have overwhelmed any competitive pressure from a mid-sized Chinese entrant. The structural problem is that three companies control >90% of DRAM, and YMTC doesn't make DRAM at all, they make NAND. CXMT's DRAM operation is far smaller and wasn't even targeted by the same sanctions.

The memory price crisis is real, the oligopoly is real, and more competition would help. But attributing the current crisis primarily to sanctions rather than to AI-driven demand reallocation and the inherent fragility of a 3-player oligopoly (which existed long before any Chinese entrant) conflates a contributing factor with the primary cause.

[1] https://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_announces_the_kirin_980-news...

[2] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/05/21/2019-10...

[3] https://www.tomsguide.com/us/snapdragon-855-benchmarks,news-...

[4] https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/30/21114885/huawei-overtakes...

[5] https://thefinanser.com/2021/06/usa-v-china-or-huawei-v-hsbc...

[6] https://www.cbc.ca/news/meng-wanzhou-huawei-kovrig-spavor-1....

[7] https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/2022-nand-process-tech...

[8] https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1q3qln3/ymtc_rock...

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_price_fixing_scandal

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These prices are insane. I can’t believe that’s what constitutes a good deal right now.

Look at pricing for hard drives, SSDs and even USB flash drives.

Oh don’t worry I know. If I can pat myself on the back a bit, I was super vindicated at work last week when someone shared a WD drive shortage article - I had pushed us to grab 7x 14TB refurbished enterprise drives in December (6 bay raid, 7th is a spare). The 12TB seagate EXOS currently cost $110 more than we paid for those 14’s.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so what official sources do you base your definition of price dumping on? Nobody is asking for your opinion on what you think price dumping is. This is a legally recognised thing, not just some random talking point.

The normal price is not the same as the market price. The normal price is what we had last year. The market price is higher than normal, due to a sudden demand spike and production shifting to HBM. More manufacturing capacity coming online to return the price to normal is not dumping, it's how markets are supposed to operate. Dumping would be e.g. if China used subsidies to sell DRAM at a price below what unsubsidise…

Normal price is a technical term I assume. Is it just a historical price, or is it knowable without market based price discovery?

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing what can be achieved when you can plan 5 years in advance, instead of just making the line go up for the next quarter.

But, we do plan 5 years in advance. Cloud, VR, Crypto, and now AI. All glorious five year plans from the Silicon Valley Planning Bureau comrade.

The CEO reads the WSJ and their McKinsey report and says “We must leverage AI to keep up and accelerate innovation!” Each division’s executive vice president sets a current year goal to use AI to increase productivity and simultaneously decrease cost. The VPs below them are given a goal to increase their department productivity by 30% by the end of Q3. The middle managers require line managers to train all individual contributors on AI (specifically LLMs) by the end of Q2 to get their bonus. Line managers email their direct reports links to LinkedIn courses and set a deadline by the end of Q1. When the end of the year comes AI has not raised productivity by 30% and AI spending has increased costs. To make Wall Street happy 10% of employees are laid off.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#255
post #61

Still no confirmation if CXMT or YMTC actually removed from entity list, until then this is jus cheap domestic inputs.

As far as I understand, the "entity list" you are referring to is part of the "Export Administration Regulations", so it restricts sales from the US to restricted entities, not the other way around.

Consumers generally safe to import for personal use, but for larger orgs, there's likely strict supply chain compliance risks that makes companies on 1260H list, i.e. military concern list no go.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, we do plan 5 years in advance. Cloud, VR, Crypto, and now AI. All glorious five year plans from the Silicon Valley Planning Bureau comrade.

The CEO reads the WSJ and their McKinsey report and says “We must leverage AI to keep up and accelerate innovation!” Each division’s executive vice president sets a current year goal to use AI to increase productivity and simultaneously decrease cost. The VPs below them are given a goal to increase their department productivity by 30% by the end of Q3. The middle managers require line managers to train all individual…

For decades the economic planners of the west have used the most effective tool at their disposal: the business class inflight magazine. Only recently surpassed by the VC telegram group chat.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big difference recently from the past is instead of philosophers its scientists who are making the plans and decisions in China so are willing to course correct instead staying the course despite bad out comes.

I don't know if that tracks, senior leadership was heavily influenced towards implementing the one child policy by the works of Song Jian, who came from a rocketry background and presented a model whereby the population would grow to an unsustainable level unless corrective control was applied. I think it is unlikely philosophers would have suggested to treat population growth like tuning a PID controller.

>treat population growth like tuning a PID controller.

Treating human resources like resources because 100s of millions of bodies ultimately subject to statistics. "Libtard" philosophers from small countries don't truly have to reckon with Malthusian pressure and law of large numbers.

And PRC family planning wasn't wrong, averted ~300m births, and bluntly PRC still left with ~400/1400m surplus mouths trapped in low-end farming and informal economy. Otherwise they'd have 1000m/1700m, more than 400+300 because every family with more kids is one that can't concentrate surplus/resources on tertiary/skill uplift. Now PRC left with TFR problem, but averted developmental doomsday scenario of too many subsistence peasants, aka where India trending towards.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#258

As a outside observer, NAND and DRAM prices have skyrocket ed with the AI infrastructure boom just as the China-based fabs are coming online. It is wise for these Chinese fabs to eventually use a very aggressive dumping strategy to price well below cost push out other players forever, especially in DRAM. But right now it seems they can max out their supply capacity without selling below cost. Appears to me like China…

It's amazing what can be achieved when you can plan 5 years in advance, instead of just making the line go up for the next quarter.

Also amazing what could be wasted when you can plan 5 years in the wrong direction. Remember USSR computers? They also been planned years in advance.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#259

As a outside observer, NAND and DRAM prices have skyrocket ed with the AI infrastructure boom just as the China-based fabs are coming online. It is wise for these Chinese fabs to eventually use a very aggressive dumping strategy to price well below cost push out other players forever, especially in DRAM. But right now it seems they can max out their supply capacity without selling below cost. Appears to me like China…

It's amazing what can be achieved when you can plan 5 years in advance, instead of just making the line go up for the next quarter.

If CXMT new what was coming 5 years ago, they could've bought NVDA stock and 14x their investment.

Re: CXMT has been offering DDR4 chips at about half the prevailing market rate

#260
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing what can be achieved when you can plan 5 years in advance, instead of just making the line go up for the next quarter.

History is littered with the corpses of those slaughtered by the millions in the name of great leader’s 5 year plans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Great leaders use human resources as resources, that's historically why they're great, acquire territory, build state capacity, both at expenditure of regenerating resources - lives. A few 5 year plans that traded a few million lives to save more millions later. And by million we mean low single digit percent, i.e. historic rounding error that isn't remarkable nor worth the fixation except by muh liberal value types.

There's a reason there was persistent Chinese famines before GLF, and none after, because early industrial policies sorted out land resource management via massive rural mobilization/infra/industrial efforts, i.e. why PRC industrialization % and lifespan was vastly higher than developing peers in 70s... that's all because GLF broadly worked, adding about cumulative 200 milliion lives in terms of extended lifespan and likely ~100m+ in terms of averted famine deaths. Most historically competent Chinese leadership is return to farseeing utilitarianism, willing to trade lives for progress, which always sucks for the people during time of upheaval, but ultimately net good.

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