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430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

nytimes.com

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Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#251

Post by htek »

WalterBright wrote: post #191
api wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes when I think about this it makes me wonder if we should take the dark forest hypothesis seriously (re: Fermi paradox). Not only are we the only species to reach this kind of technology but among humans the first group to reach space was the Nazis. Today the innovation in that area seems driven by militaristic states and by people who seem ideologically adjacent. In other words it’s driven by very aggressive…

> Today the innovation in that area seems driven by militaristic states and by people who seem ideologically adjacent. Today it's Musk driving space technology forward, and I don't see him acting militaristic.

> Musk driving space technology forward, and I don't see him acting militaristic.

Surely, you jest. He's heavily entwined his companies with the US military. StarLink is used heavily in battlefield communications [1]. He sought to deny the courtesy to one of our allies when Russia disrupted Ukraine's satellite communications, but eventually reversed course over the optics of it [2].

Musk's Grok is going to be used by the Pentagon for the usual pursuits of police states everywhere [3].

1. https://spacenews.com/spacexs-expanding-role-in-u-s-defense/

2. https://irregularwarfare.org/articles/when-a-ceo-plays-presi...

3. https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-gains-favor-as-pentagon-emb...

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#252

Post by butlike »

ncr100 wrote: post #104
unfitted2545 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kinda ridiculous to think we're not animals anymore, our nature is to use intellect for survival (and though we know we can reduce suffering further we choose not to).

It is a mind bender, yes. Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation, or that everything that we do is preordained based upon physics. All mindbenders. I want to believe that I have the ability to make an educated decision when faced e.g. with impulses to suppress or oppress others, I do know that I can consider ramificat…

We don't have the capacity to act "unanimal" at all. Deprive anyone of food or sincerely try and harm their children. You'll get the fall of Rome and French Revolution every time.

You eat, sleep, procreate, go to the grocery store (hunt). You honk at others they are preventing you from getting where you're going. You size up other males if you're male, females if you're female. Your favorite food is your favorite food and not mine because YOUR biology dictates that to you based on your experience. You consider ramifications as a self-preserving defense mechanism, not as some social cordiality.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#253

Post by butlike »

staplers wrote: post #98
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" We were a large family [1]. > Real "are we the baddies?" moment We were animals. We acted in accordance with our natures. Wolves and chimpanzees aren’t baddies any more than bees or hyenas. Nature is brutal. Today, however, we are more than our natures. We have the capacity to criticize it when it arises in ways we disapprove of. In…

humans have a unique capacity to reduce suffering in a way With low cost to our wellbeing as well. Which I think is the main point. Our advances in logistical transportation and food production allow us to be kinder and more plentiful than ever before. Unfortunately we see "instinctual" echoes of past strife seemingly arise from minor inconveniences (those ppl do something that annoys me).

Explain to me, specifically, how we have the capacity to reduce suffering.

> Our advances in logistical transportation and food production allow us to be kinder and more plentiful than ever before.

Are the fisheries not overfished? Are the chickens not caged inhumanely? Is last-mile logistics not a problem? Are microplastics in the water not giving 20-year olds cancer?

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#254

Post by accidentallfact »

wil421 wrote: post #107
drakythe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, today I learned something! Thanks for the information, I guess I know which rabbit hole I'm going down today.

To put it into perspective, we did not invent fire.

I think a quite unexpected (but more common sense) picture begins to emerge:

1. Language already emerged with early hominins (paranthropus and such).

2. Habilis et al developed toolmaking to a level that carrying stuff around was of critical importance.

3. H. erectus emerged from walking, and brought technology to a "civilized" level.

4. Anything post erectus evolved for civilized society.

5. The destruction of soils in eurasia about 24000 BC

6. The destruction of soils in the Americas about 9500 BC

7. Old metallurgy age.

8. Tin bronze age.

9. Recorded history.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#255

Post by WalterBright »

drakythe wrote: post #244
WalterBright wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through public elementary and high school. The amount of world history taught there is vanishingly small. Just for fun, ask some high schoolers who were the major combatants in WW2.

20th century history was covered in depth because much of it can be taught with an American Exceptionalism slant easily. I'm more talking about pre-Roman Empire times. Though you just reminded me of a co-worker I had while I was in University. She had attended a private Christian High School and apparently world history was optional there because (we worked at a movie rental place) when Valkyrie released I commented…

None of the history classes in grade/high school I attended advanced after 1900.

However, I knew a lot about WW2 because my dad (and relatives) was heavily involved in it, and also became a historian when he left the AF. He had a mountain of history books, mostly about aviation and WW2. I read some of them, and watched movies like "The Blue Max" and "The Battle of Britain", the "World At War" series, and so on. There are also endless WW2 documentaries on TV.

My neighbor was a paratrooper who lost his leg, my dad's best friend was a P-51 pilot who had his face burned off in combat. WW2 vets were everywhere. They're all dead now, and WW2 is ancient history.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#256

Post by WalterBright »

htek wrote: post #251
WalterBright wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today the innovation in that area seems driven by militaristic states and by people who seem ideologically adjacent. Today it's Musk driving space technology forward, and I don't see him acting militaristic.

> Musk driving space technology forward, and I don't see him acting militaristic. Surely, you jest. He's heavily entwined his companies with the US military. StarLink is used heavily in battlefield communications [1]. He sought to deny the courtesy to one of our allies when Russia disrupted Ukraine's satellite communications, but eventually reversed course over the optics of it [2]. Musk's Grok is going to be used by…

None of those suggest "heavily intertwined". More like the US military has decided that it's a smart move to take advantage of Musk's technology.

As for the Ukraine thing, I read that Musk was trying to comply with US law in avoiding making foreign policy.

It's no surprise that the military uses Starlink, just like they use cars.

As for grok, of course the military is going to buy what they want.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#257

Post by rsynnott »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #14
throwup238 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) by millions of years. The first stone industry - Oldowan - is at least two million years old and might be as old as three million. They predate what we call “archaic humans” by a long time. Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable. We’ve got phytolith [1] and microwear [2] studies showing unambiguous evidence of woodworking going back at least…

That's wild! Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize these things went so far back. So are you saying these were straight up non-human primates using tools? Or is this all traceable to our lineage?

Oh, that's nothing. There are _birds_ which make and use tools.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#258

Post by brockers »

It might be just my perception, but it seems like every single time anthropologist make statements to the effect that complex human development didn't start until XX they are proven wrong. It wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't for the fact that those "estimates" are generally used as proof to dismiss alternative timelines for human progression. I'm certainly not trying to say the planet had Atlantis with flying cars 300,000 years ago; but it certainly seems plausible that there were large/complex societies beginning long before the advent of our current written history... an idea that is regularly dismissed as foolish.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#259

Post by jama211 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86
jama211 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting interpretation, but it’s sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me.

> sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me What part of the study strikes you as unsubstantiated?

Not the study specifically, the rather huge leaps of logic and faith required to get from the study’s findings to the speculations mentioned in your comment.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#260

Post by delecti »

wil421 wrote: post #185
Sharlin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, nobody did, because fire was likely used for tens or hundreds of thousands of years before anyone figured out how to make fire on demand.

You and everyone else know exactly what I meant but whatever. Not sure why I train AI on this site anymore.

I wasn't at all sure what you meant. The emphasis in your comment could very easily have been on "We" (another hominid discovered how to harness fire, which seems to be your intent) or on "invent" (fire happens in nature, hominids didn't invent it at all). The latter is perfectly in line with the kind of "attempting to be clever but actually just annoying" pedantry that nerdy internet spaces often see.
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