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East Germany balloon escape

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Re: East Germany balloon escape

#251

Post by qcnguy »

vlowrian wrote: post #250
qcnguy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice the average German voter is still supporting the coalition against the AfD despite that the coalition is implementing Soviet-like policies. They talk constantly about banning the most popular political party, for example, and they regularly imprison or fine people for anti-left political opinions. Germans who aren't actively supporting the AfD should feel no sense of moral superiority, there simply isn't…

> and they regularly imprison or fine people for anti-left political opinions Do you have any sources to substantiate this claim? In particular, including under which law a prison sentence or fine was imposed for the expression of a constitutionally protected political opinion.

Nice try. The German constitution is a poor document and doesn't protect political opinion, so your "constitutionally protected" political opinion caveat just makes it useless. You'd just defend every example with "our constitution allows that" rather than recognizing that it just means the constitution itself is wrong.

Example: the American author CJ Hopkins has been repeatedly prosecuted in Berlin despite being acquitted the first time, because in Germany there's apparently no constitutional prohibition against double jeopardy. His "crime" was criticizing COVID authoritarianism. You're now going to tell me why the German constitution allows this, and incorrectly use that as a moral justification.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#252

Post by olelele »

api wrote: post #246

Other than North Korea, are there still countries that are literal prisons that you can’t leave? It’s astounding to me that this was a thing. The fact that it’s so rare now is one of the quiet ways we have in fact progressed.

I spoke with the people working at a German resort in Tunisia. I was there for a short stint as sound tech. The only way out of the country is smuggling. You don’t get permission to leave if you’re of working age and can contribute to the economy.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#253

Post by istjohn »

hopelite wrote: post #122
AniseAbyss wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So turn back the clock to when Hildegard von Bingen was only one of many extremely powerful and influential abbesses that were polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators of women in Europe? I’ve never understood this mentality that people who read and watched handmaids tale, caused some done kind of weird obsession built on a literal fiction story, a made up story… especially since the reality is not on…

It's laughable to paint Islam as the enemy of Western liberty when it is masked agents of a Christian nationalist regime who are terrorizing the streets of my city and cities across the US.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#254

Post by olelele »

qcnguy wrote: post #233
honzabe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently read a book of interviews with people who escaped from North Korea, and what shocked me was the discovery that the relatives of those who escaped are often executed (publicly) and that even children are executed in North Korea. We live in a terrible world. I mean... you expect a book from North Korea to contain terrible things, but somehow it was even worse than I expected.

Left wing thought doesn't contain any philosophy of limitations on state power, so under a left wing regime there is no limit to what it might do. No matter how terrible something is, if it can be imagined they will consider implementing it. To avoid that outcome there has to be an understanding of the flawed nature of government, and from that an ideological commitment to a state limited in power and role.

So everyone not a libertarian is dangerous?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#255

Post by Der_Einzige »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #186
hopelite wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So turn back the clock to when Hildegard von Bingen was only one of many extremely powerful and influential abbesses that were polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators of women in Europe? I’ve never understood this mentality that people who read and watched handmaids tale, caused some done kind of weird obsession built on a literal fiction story, a made up story… especially since the reality is not on…

> Have you ever heard of what the Ottoman Empire did? Pertaining specifically to women? No, actually. Any chance you'd elaborate for the curious?

Not what he means but the ottomans and women have an interesting history…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Women

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#256

Post by Der_Einzige »

greesil wrote: post #133
hopelite wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So turn back the clock to when Hildegard von Bingen was only one of many extremely powerful and influential abbesses that were polymaths and prolific artists and writers and educators of women in Europe? I’ve never understood this mentality that people who read and watched handmaids tale, caused some done kind of weird obsession built on a literal fiction story, a made up story… especially since the reality is not on…

It's like, a metaphor man. A work of fiction. Not to be taken literally, yet conveys themes and ideas which can become a short hand for conveying these ideas. Tons of folks read Atlas Shrugged and thought "hey this is how the world actually is" too. Or worse, The Fountainhead. Shudder.

Sometimes, books which claim to be real like “night” by Elie Wiesel are full of bullshit/lies/fraud too!

His book sowed the seeds for holocaust denialism in GenZ.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#257

Post by honzabe »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #236
honzabe wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile we put experts to work optimizing conversion and engagement metrics. A truly enlightened way of life we've built for ourselves. I grew up in communist Czechoslovakia, and claims like this really bother me. As if it is somehow comparable to being forced to serve in the army of a dictatorship. What is wrong with working on optimizing conversion and engagement metrics? It can be interesting and useful. Peopl…

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not arguing in favor of a state run economy or a dictatorship or whatever else it is you seem to have concluded. Flawed though our system may be I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But all the same it's important to be able to recognize where we could do better. Optimizing for investor return is frequently not synonymous with optimizing for societal well…

No, I understood well.

In my country, there is a barrage of Russian propaganda trying to relativize our shitty experience with the communist regime. They keep flooding the zone with claims about democracy being flawed, weak, bureaucratic, meaningless, and decadent. And it is working. People appreciate democracy a lot less than ten or twenty years ago.

Sure, there is a time for the self-criticism of the flaws of the West. I just think now is not the time. Democracy and freedom are under serious threat worldwide. Now is the time to keep reminding ourselves how great it is what we have built. Now is the time to be absolutely clear that the flaws of democracies are not in the same category as the flaws of authoritarian regimes.

I still remember what it was like living in a totalitarian regime - and I was living in a soft totalitarianism nearing its collapse. I am not old enough to remember the hardcore Stalinist era. And still, it was so bad that whatever you believe is bad about capitalism is like 1% of how bad it was. Which is why it bugs me so much when people talk about the flaws of both in one breath as if they were even remotely comparable.

Look, I am a pessimist. I think there is a very real chance that the US is turning into a Russia-like state. I hope not, but if that happens, very bad things are likely to happen in Europe too. We will all live it once again. If you still don’t understand what I mean, I suggest this: let’s bookmark this discussion and get back in 5 years, if we are still alive. Then, you will tell me what you think about optimizing conversion and engagement metrics. If you still think it is a problem worth mentioning by then, I will be very happy.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#258

Post by immibis »

cbdevidal wrote: post #183
kstenerud wrote: post #179

What's scary is that Russia plans to do this again. But not that surprising when you look at Russian history.

Collectivism: Ideas so good, they’re mandatory

Political buzzword du jour: every dictatorship ever.

You know there isn't an ideology called collectivism, right?

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#259

Post by immibis »

qcnguy wrote: post #233
honzabe wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently read a book of interviews with people who escaped from North Korea, and what shocked me was the discovery that the relatives of those who escaped are often executed (publicly) and that even children are executed in North Korea. We live in a terrible world. I mean... you expect a book from North Korea to contain terrible things, but somehow it was even worse than I expected.

Left wing thought doesn't contain any philosophy of limitations on state power, so under a left wing regime there is no limit to what it might do. No matter how terrible something is, if it can be imagined they will consider implementing it. To avoid that outcome there has to be an understanding of the flawed nature of government, and from that an ideological commitment to a state limited in power and role.

[flagged]

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#260

Post by immibis »

api wrote: post #246

Other than North Korea, are there still countries that are literal prisons that you can’t leave? It’s astounding to me that this was a thing. The fact that it’s so rare now is one of the quiet ways we have in fact progressed.

The USA doesn't literally prevent you from leaving, but it uses its unique control of the global banking system to still tax you when you move to another country.
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