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How getting richer made teenagers less free

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Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#251

Post by burnt-resistor »

D13Fd wrote: post #184
delichon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was 10 in '72, in a big metropolis. I'd take off on my Stingray bike on all day jaunts all over. The only comments I got were from my mom who made sure I had change to phone home in case I got a flat. I started a 4am paper route on that bike two years later, nobody batted an eye. It was the best of times.

Yeah. I did the same when I was aged 8-12 in the early 1990's. I'd bike or walk everywhere, go into all kinds of stores and the library, and get into all kinds of minor trouble with the neighborhood kids. I'm very sad that my kids aren't able to have that kind of a life (even though I get that it's largely my own fault, because we live in an area where that is just not possible).

As a teenager in the 90's, I bicycled 20+ miles away into the mountains onto steep fire roads and ridge trails. In middle school at either 12- or 13-years-old, I went on a 2 day 72 mile (roundtrip) road cycling and camping school trip from San Jose to Mt Madonna; granted that was chaperoned but not by anyone my parents knew. I couldn't afford a car until college. If I wanted to get anywhere, it was on a bicycle or maybe the occasional city bus or light rail for somewhere far away. Mom was working a full-time job and taking night classes to finish an accounting degree.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#252

Post by nrhrjrjrjtntbt »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #47
nrhrjrjrjtntbt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sidewalk ended apparently. i am imagining some super hostile urban planning. like did a cyclist cheat with the planner's spouse? is there not another route?

Streetview almost any US suburb. There often is not a way to safely cross a 60ft+ wide road with a 40mph speed limit (which means large vehicles with distracted drivers are driving 50mph+. Almost all businesses are located on these wide roads, and neighborhoods basically become islands for the kids. It’s especially bad in the winter, because it gets dark quicker, and crossing that 60ft+ wide 40mph+ road gets dicey ev…

I took you up on the challenge. Something near SF since HN's spiritual home, and not too out in the sticks.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CzuphnMwvwmoo8yLA

Yeah that looks terrible. That was pretty much random first place I looked.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#253

Post by floren »

yesfitz wrote: post #236
insane_dreamer wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, population has grown, but unless density has increased substantially, then on any given ride you're likely to encounter similar number of vehicles than before, not counting major / commute roads of course, but those aren't the ones kids are riding on also, bike lanes were virtually non-existent back then

Fantastic news, population density has increased substantially![1] 57.5 average people/square mile in 1970, growing to 93.8 in 2020. 1: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/dec/density-d...

The size of the United States has not increased since 1970, but the number of people has. So yes, no shit, (US pop / US land area) has gone up. But the question is, "is the average neighborhood more dense than it was in 1970", and that's not a question you can answer from that number, because obviously cities & towns have spread since then.

If you want an intellectually honest comparison, take a look at the District of Columbia, which is basically 100% city and has been for many decades. It's gone down since 1970.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#254

Post by cons0le »

nrhrjrjrjtntbt wrote: post #249
cons0le wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible for people to get how bad it is until they see it. My old house had a grocery store 1.2 miles away. To walk there, you have to cross a 6 lane highway. Entire neighborhoods here have no sidewalks. And the roads are so torn up they're unusable. My friend had to get rid of his road bike and get a fat tire suspension bike. None of the intersections have any lights or visibility. And you can't run off the…

You are right for most people. I am not (and cannot get) fit enough to walk and ride everywhere. I walk as much as I can because cars suck but I appreciate the car. You got me thinking about ebikes. Speed is also a thing though. Getting somewhere in 2 minutes instead of 10 is very convenient.

My friend has a velotric T1 and it's really great. Definitely get an ebike. I got a reflective jacket on ebay for $20 so cars can see me at night. Ebikes are just as good as normal bikes ( it took me years to realize this ). I have an EUC so I wont get an ebike fore now.

And yeah if I end up having kids, Ill get a minivan or something for chauffeuring. Sometimes you do in fact, need a car

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#255

Post by Aeglaecia »

squigz wrote: post #196
Aeglaecia wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically mentioned a culture disconnected from reality and at no point complained about the internet in general , since you're out here commanding me I command you to consider that commanding a particular behaviour tends to encourage the opposite behaviour

> commanding a particular behaviour tends to encourage the opposite behaviour No, it really doesn't. Look at Prohibition in America, or the "War on Drugs", or abstinence-only sex education. What does tend to reduce harmful behavior is actual education about the risks and tackling the sources of those risks. In this case, that would look like addressing the addictiveness of these platforms, instead of, say, requiring…

saying "then complain about x" is in the imperative mood regardless as to your intentions , it seems your examples align with my statement so there is nothing to argue there , if the whole world being on the net is exquisitely real to you then we are really never going to agree so I'm gonna leave it here

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#256

Post by lotsofpulp »

NavinF wrote: post #247
nathan_compton wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is called class anxiety. The US is a place where if you don't make it into or stay in at least the middle class your life sucks. You can't get healthcare, you have to work three jobs, you're treated like shit. If you want less helicopter parenting you have to create a more supportive society in general, one where there are chances to recover from failure, and one where failing to compete at the top is not a senten…

> You can't get healthcare Kinda thing only sheltered people say. When I was unemployed and on free gov't health insurance (medi-cal), I got all my healthcare for free and most of my appointments like MRIs were next-day. Not as good as tech company insurance, but "can't get healthcare" is not a thing in the US. > you have to work three jobs Plot the number of people working multiple jobs vs time and you'll see a flat…

Medicaid is a poor substitute of a proper PPO plan. The reimbursements are low, so there are fewer providers, and it requires you to not have any assets.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#257

Post by ninkendo »

yesfitz wrote: post #214
ninkendo wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a counterexample, come visit Houten, NL (I live here and it's great) where you literally see kids around 10 years old biking independently Or come to where I live in the midwestern united states and you see the same thing. I see kids as young as 7 years old riding bikes together on a bike path that has a very generous distance to the nearby road, and parents let them roam free. Always remember: If you see a sta…

If you live anywhere like Houten[1] anywhere in the US, please tell me ASAP because I'll move there tomorrow. From my area of the Midwest around Iowa City, there are decent paths that connect the local towns, but intra-town cycling is far less supported. We have bike lanes (good), on some streets (bad), they're unprotected (bad) and they close on Sunday (bad, also what?). The car-free bike path along the river is sha…

I didn't say I live in a place just like Houten, I said I live in a place where you regularly see kids under 10 years old riding bikes together without adults (and like GP said, often with a fishing pole or soccer ball in tow.)

You don't need a place that's the literal "best place for cycling in the world" for this, you just need to (1) build a bike path that's not adjacent to the road (ours is typically 10-20ft away from the road) and (2) have it be along a main thoroughfare where everyone lives a short distance from it.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#258

Post by ninkendo »

CalRobert wrote: post #242
ninkendo wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a counterexample, come visit Houten, NL (I live here and it's great) where you literally see kids around 10 years old biking independently Or come to where I live in the midwestern united states and you see the same thing. I see kids as young as 7 years old riding bikes together on a bike path that has a very generous distance to the nearby road, and parents let them roam free. Always remember: If you see a sta…

I lived in the US for thirty years. I’m American. I would be ECSTATIC if the US had one place like this. Best I can think of are maybe accidentally low car areas like Catalina island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackinac_Island

(Not where I live, but it's in my state.)

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#259

Post by girvo »

kakacik wrote: post #12
actionfromafar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In aggregate, tough times make people malnourished, alcoholic, traumatized, lower IQ, apathetic, aggressive. In no particular order or combination.

Look at US during late 40s / 50s. Do you think your definition is valid for those times en masse? (apart from the fact that most of those markers slowly improved over time due to overall progress). Same would be valid for western Europe, eastern part got fucked up by soviets pushing communism and related terror left and right.

> Do you think your definition is valid for those times en masse

Lead poisoning leading to lower IQs, alcoholism was definitely rampant (though less stigmatised at the time), traumatised from the war, aggressiveness towards spouses and each other (see: war trauma)

Yes, it absolutely was.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#260

Post by klatchex_too »

delichon wrote: post #156
D13Fd wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have six young kids. This attitude is absolutely prevalent (and it's insane). I've been chewed out by a cashier for sending an 8 year old into a store alone. I've had a person run out of a restaurant, panicking, and grab my 2 year old because she was walking too far ahead of me. I've had people tell me it's unsafe to let me 10, 8, and 5-year olds bike together in the park ahead of me while I walk. Just giving my ki…

I was 10 in '72, in a big metropolis. I'd take off on my Stingray bike on all day jaunts all over. The only comments I got were from my mom who made sure I had change to phone home in case I got a flat. I started a 4am paper route on that bike two years later, nobody batted an eye. It was the best of times.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

I was in elementary school when the arcade game craze happened, PacMan, Donkey Kong, etc. I would wander the streets looking for games to play. There were arcade games in every grocery store, restaurants, every convenience store (so basically just 7-11s). Home gaming consoles could not begin to match what was in the arcades at that time. I would walk the streets looking for new ones to play.

I mostly played arcade games, but I would play pinball too. One day I was walking past a place and saw a pinball game and went in and started playing. I think it was on the second quarter when someone came and asked if I was there with my parents. I said no and they told me I had to leave since minors weren't allowed in a bar. I don't think I even know what a bar was at that time.

Elementary school kid hanging out in a bar without his parents would get some CPS attention these days I guess.

The worst of times part is, if I was "free range" it wasn't because my parents had discussed the risks and benefits of allowing me to wander the streets. No kid I knew had both parents at home back then. Our moms worked. We were free range because no one gave a shit what we did as long as we weren't causing them some immediate problem. So we had freedom. It was both glorious and horrible.

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