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The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

brendaneich.github.com

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Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#251

Post by BrendanEich »

colin_jack wrote: post #240
cmccabe wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the structural subtyping. This is a feature I also like in Go.

I know +1's don't help but ditto from me. I haven't had time to use TS much yet but the combination of structural type system (not needing to inherit from IFoo, if you have the members it's enough) and optional typing look like exactly what I want. Hopefully this pays off in terms of not only self-descriptive code but also greater support for refactoring tools.

In many ways, TypeScript is the "anti-Dash" (see leaked Dart memo). It builds on ES6. It does not inject novel runtime semantics. It just checks annotations _a la_ JSLint. Smart!

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#252

Post by BrendanEich »

SeanLuke wrote: post #200
BrendanEich wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, missed the Yoda misquote at the end, I must respond! Yoda said "where you are " but you used "was". Possibly just a tense-typo, but it matters. Tracking where JS is is a part of the TC39 job, but only a part. It's easy to fall into a trap where we standardize only what developers can express given the language's current semantics and so miss the chance to extend those semantics. But I'll take the tense-correct…

> The web is an evolving system, JS is part of the web standards and must evolve too. I don't see too many language gizmos in the presentation which reflect the requirements of web standards. Most of them are extensions to a language which desperately needs modification more than extension at this time. Evolution in a language is a matter of where you spend your development resources. &rest-args, weak maps, modules,…

Ok, "was" -- but not "you", rather, "he" as in "where he was".

With "me" it's a question of "is". JS is used for purposes far beyond its original design limits. A victory condition and a call to evolution. ES6 is Ecma TC39's attempt to hit that target.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#253

Post by othermaciej »

haberman wrote: post #241
othermaciej wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've expressed my personal opinions about NaCl here on HN before too: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2057611

For what it's worth, I think the comment you linked is far more fair and balanced criticism. If all of the statements I was hearing from Mozilla people sounded like that, I would have no beef.

I have a different writing style from Brendan, but I don't think there is any significant substantive difference between what he said in this thread and what I said almost 2 years ago.

(Although, the fact that PNaCl is still an experiment and not the mainstream of NaCl nearly two years after I wrote my comment should be further cause for concern.)

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#254

Post by haberman »

othermaciej wrote: post #253
haberman wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I think the comment you linked is far more fair and balanced criticism. If all of the statements I was hearing from Mozilla people sounded like that, I would have no beef.

I have a different writing style from Brendan, but I don't think there is any significant substantive difference between what he said in this thread and what I said almost 2 years ago. (Although, the fact that PNaCl is still an experiment and not the mainstream of NaCl nearly two years after I wrote my comment should be further cause for concern.)

The significant substantive differences, to me as a reader, are:

- You don't make final-sounding judgments like "never" or "non-starter" that preemptively reject any future evolution of the technology.

- Your criticisms are highly pragmatic and specific, such that it is clear what hurdles the technology would have to clear to address them, and you don't close the door to the idea that they could (even if it seems unlikely to you).

- You don't fall back on ideological arguments like native code as a "social ill" that would suggest that your true objections run deeper than what any technical improvements could possibly address.

Thank you for that.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#255

Post by BrendanEich »

haberman wrote: post #254
othermaciej wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a different writing style from Brendan, but I don't think there is any significant substantive difference between what he said in this thread and what I said almost 2 years ago. (Although, the fact that PNaCl is still an experiment and not the mainstream of NaCl nearly two years after I wrote my comment should be further cause for concern.)

The significant substantive differences, to me as a reader, are: - You don't make final-sounding judgments like "never" or "non-starter" that preemptively reject any future evolution of the technology. - Your criticisms are highly pragmatic and specific, such that it is clear what hurdles the technology would have to clear to address them, and you don't close the door to the idea that they could (even if it seems unl…

The purpose of my "final-sounding judgments" is to cut the crap in the short term that keeps getting dumped on Mozilla by you and others with an enlarged sense of entitlement, and an unjustified assumption that NaCl/PNaCl + Pepper is somehow "better" in the large, and so should get free support from non-Chrome browsers.

If you think overcoming some hurdles enumerated by Maciej will get PNaCL and Pepper support into Safari (where, BTW, Pepper is closest to porting cleanly by any measure, e.g., patch size), you're dreaming. Remember, I did not coin the funny "Active G" phrase. That shoe was fit by the guy you're trying to suck up to here.

If an indefinite-future-tense, and therefore worthless, promise from me to be open to portable SuperPNaCl in 2020, will get you to stop bashing Mozilla and flattering Apple, then here it is. Indeed my plan is for JS to evolve and mutate to be that portable object format for native code to compile to.

Emscripten is a promising sign along this path. And the PNaCl folks are targeting JS too, I hear, so this looks like a common goal.

Now can you stop defaming Mozilla?

/be

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#256

Post by askimto »

BrendanEich wrote: post #255
haberman wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The significant substantive differences, to me as a reader, are: - You don't make final-sounding judgments like "never" or "non-starter" that preemptively reject any future evolution of the technology. - Your criticisms are highly pragmatic and specific, such that it is clear what hurdles the technology would have to clear to address them, and you don't close the door to the idea that they could (even if it seems unl…

The purpose of my "final-sounding judgments" is to cut the crap in the short term that keeps getting dumped on Mozilla by you and others with an enlarged sense of entitlement, and an unjustified assumption that NaCl/PNaCl + Pepper is somehow "better" in the large, and so should get free support from non-Chrome browsers. If you think overcoming some hurdles enumerated by Maciej will get PNaCL and Pepper support into S…

Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#257

Post by BrendanEich »

askimto wrote: post #256
BrendanEich wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of my "final-sounding judgments" is to cut the crap in the short term that keeps getting dumped on Mozilla by you and others with an enlarged sense of entitlement, and an unjustified assumption that NaCl/PNaCl + Pepper is somehow "better" in the large, and so should get free support from non-Chrome browsers. If you think overcoming some hurdles enumerated by Maciej will get PNaCL and Pepper support into S…

Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.

I always reply when I have something worth saying.

"Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes.

Let's step away from NaCl as pure tech for safer compilation of unsafe languages.

I do call Google's business strategy pushing NaCl+Pepper via games and even (till it all fell apart last November) Flash heavy-handed, and one-sided to such an extent that what's pushed can never be standardized.

What's belligerent here is for someone (haberman), who I hear works for Google, a company that has all the money and power in the world, and which makes actual "pro-NaCl propaganda" as well as pays game developers and others to use the Chrome-only tech (NaCl, not PNaCl, note well), to fire first on this thread. It wasn't me who showed "belligerence".

That first shot even tried open-washing, lamely, and it tellingly put Mozilla in the subordinate position. ''I could understand "we want to be more involved in the process."''

If you don't work for Google or hold a brief for them, ask yourself why haberman's presumption is that Mozilla, or any other browser maker, should be asking or begging to be included in a process that we were excluded from and practically speaking could never participate in without equal big bucks and market power.

The great thing about the Web is that no one owns it. Browser vendors, tool makers, and developers (whom the first two groups avidly court) have to reach consensus via standards. And I find that developers, not just pure web devs, definitely including @kripken (Emscripten's creator), @jashkenas (CoffeeScript), and others, are more creative and faster moving than many highly-paid C++-first hackers, including those perpetrating single-vendor follies such as NaCl+Pepper.

Whine at me, cry "hate" and "belligerence" while turning a blind eye to the big gun who fired first, and shoot the messenger. It doesn't matter. NaCl+Pepper have already lost to JS for portable cross-browser high-performance native code compilation.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#258

Post by askimto »

BrendanEich wrote: post #257
askimto wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.

I always reply when I have something worth saying. "Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes. Let…

Ah I see I should have said "Google" where I said "NaCl". My mistake.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#259

Post by BrendanEich »

askimto wrote: post #258
BrendanEich wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always reply when I have something worth saying. "Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes. Let…

Ah I see I should have said "Google" where I said "NaCl". My mistake.

You're doing better! But no, I don't "hate" Google. Big companies and big groups of people in general have inherent morally failure-prone properties. Google fights these, and in many ways still manages "don't be evil".

Heavy-handed and one-sided strategies and tactics may be odious, I may "hate" them -- you should too if they're not well-justified and likely to prevail -- but that's not the point of this exchange, which haberman started. Nice try deflecting, though.

The point of my slide, and of my comments here, is to make the case for what's best for the Web. So let's get back to that.

What is best for the Web? Not NaCl, we all agree. PNaCl? Not with Pepper as a mandatory API for all browsers to adopt. And PNaCl has a JS back end.

Steve Jobs killed Flash. Plugins are in decline. However well Google, Mozilla, and others use NaCl for native code safety, on the Web JS looks highly likely to continue, and to get super-fast for the well-typed and GC-free code produced by Emscripten.

This all points to a future where evolved JS is the PNaCl format that works cross-browser. We're already working on this at Mozilla, but via Emscripten not PNaCl. If Google aims its formidable engineers at the same goal and works in the standards bodies early and fairly, great. I'd love that.

Re: The State of JavaScript - Brendan Eich

#260

Post by gunsmith »

BrendanEich wrote: post #257
askimto wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.

I always reply when I have something worth saying. "Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes. Let…

That's why you have been supporting Emscripten with... just one developer, it's creator? Shouldn't there be a whole team towards this goal you envision?

Currently emscripten should have the amount of people three.js has.

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