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A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

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Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#251

Post by monerozcash »

daveguy wrote: post #247
inferiorhuman wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most (and the biggest) BCBS licensees are for-profit. Kaiser is not but is still eye wateringly expensive. For me, a silver plan will be about $700-800 next year. And then you take a look at what a bronze plan covers…

This is correct. BCBS is for profit and most others are. Kaiser Foundation Health Plan is one of the few not for profit insurances and only available in 8 states.

BCBS AL, AR, CA, KS, HI, LA, MA, MI, MN, NC, ND, RI, TN and VT are all not for profit, as far as I can tell.

Not an exhaustive list, just asked AI and quickly checked it's output with google.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#252

Post by drcongo »

Aurornis wrote: post #8

FYI for anyone who isn't familiar with the wacky US insurance situation: Nobody in the US actually pays $800 for the drug. That's the "list price" for insurance companies to pay. Even insurance companies don't pay that price because they negotiate their own rates with the drug companies, which are lower. Then the drug companies come in and offer a "savings card" which you apply at the pharmacy like another layer of i…

Every time drug prices come up on here someone posts this explainer without mentioning the eye watering cost of the insurance.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#253

Post by cyberax »

OutOfHere wrote: post #243
cyberax wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. I do. 1. "PFAS" is a technically incorrect term. 2. It's ridiculously broad. Teflon is PFAS, sevoflurane is PFAS, and so on. > If you actually think the scare is overblown, I dare you to drink the whole bottle of that eyedrop. They literally use the same liquid to FILL THE EYEBALLS after retinal surgery. It's been approved for 25 years. A bottle of eyedrops…

The only relevant subdivision of PFAS is by chain length: small, medium, large. Even so, they all accumulate in the environment. Just because you with your short term selfish interest doesn't take any responsibility for the world at large, willing to totally destroy it for small personal gain, does not mean that others don't either. All PFAS are very harmful in the environment because it's like paperclips that keep b…

> The only relevant subdivision of PFAS is by chain length: small, medium, large.

PFOA and PFOS have 8-member fluorinated chains. And they are dangerous, with clear dose-dependent effects.

PFHO has a 6-member fluorinated chain, and it has no known toxic effects.

> Even so, they all accumulate in the environment.

So does silicon oxide. Or a lot of other "terminal" compounds. The questions that need to be asked are:

1. Are they dangerous by themselves?

2. Do they bioaccumulate?

3. Do they stay mobile in the environment (i.e. don't get sequestered)?

In case of PFHO, it's not dangerous. It does not bioaccumulate because of its poor absorption. And it's also not mobile.

> The last I recall, it causes brain damage in children.

No, it doesn't.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#254

Post by exasperaited »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #228
exasperaited wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contrary to the USA where it's a much more responsible market, This is satire? I can’t tell anymore. I mean the USA is the only country where someone can allegedly murder a healthcare executive for denying treatment and popular culture is engaged in drooling about how well the alleged killer fills out a tailored shirt.

When I say market, I'm referring to economic and more specifically to health market.

Right, but it's not more responsible is it? It's plainly kafkaesque with lots of impositions that always serve only to benefit the gatekeepers. Which is why they hated Obamacare, because it is less bad.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#255

Post by OutOfHere »

cyberax wrote: post #253
OutOfHere wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only relevant subdivision of PFAS is by chain length: small, medium, large. Even so, they all accumulate in the environment. Just because you with your short term selfish interest doesn't take any responsibility for the world at large, willing to totally destroy it for small personal gain, does not mean that others don't either. All PFAS are very harmful in the environment because it's like paperclips that keep b…

> The only relevant subdivision of PFAS is by chain length: small, medium, large. PFOA and PFOS have 8-member fluorinated chains. And they are dangerous, with clear dose-dependent effects. PFHO has a 6-member fluorinated chain, and it has no known toxic effects. > Even so, they all accumulate in the environment. So does silicon oxide. Or a lot of other "terminal" compounds. The questions that need to be asked are: 1.…

Don't confuse silicon oxide with a PFAS. It is quite the negligent and hazardous fallacy to put them in the same bucket. One has been around for billions of years. The other hardly has any research, and will take at least a decade more of data and research before we know what's it is capable of.

You are in no way smart enough to understand and consider all the pathways, uptake mechanisms, and consequences that are affected by the PFAS compound across all of biological life. Knowing just one or two over just a few years does not make you competent in it or qualified to make a broad safety comment.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#256

Post by cyberax »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #241
cyberax wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also used to replace the intraocular fluid. In that case you'll get trillions times that. This is why the PFAS scare is quite a bit silly. "PFAS" is such a broad category that it's ridiculous.

Surely the sheer number and amount of different PFAs being distributed around the planet without knowing about long term effects is the ridiculous bit. The argument that because we dump a lot of it must mean that it's safe is just wishful thinking. Remember when lead was added to fuel and large amounts of lead were then pumped into the air? It had very noticeable effects on criminality in people.

The question is in the amount of them. PFOA and PFOS were literally dumped in kiloton quantities into the environment without much thought about their toxicity. They were used in firefighting foam that was just flushed into the sewer.

So yeah, removing that source of pollution is good. At the same time, the effects of even the worst offender (PFOS) are at most mild. Wildlife and epidemiological studies found significant effects only in areas that are at least billions of times more contaminated with PFAS than can ever accumulate in the environment if the waste streams are managed properly.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#257

Post by cyberax »

OutOfHere wrote: post #244
cyberax wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, yeah. Sure. > That fails completely because they almost always don't have softgel oil-dissolve forms or the right dose at all I tried tons of forms. My current ones are gel-filled capsules. Rather large ones, at that. Sorry, but there's a huge amount of scholarly literature on this question. I've read tons of it over the years, and there is NO magical supplement that does anything but mildly improve the situati…

Forms alone won't accomplish anything if the dose isn't correct. With regard to vitamin A, some people confuse it with beta carotene, with the latter not working so well for this effect. Vitamin A even has evidence backing it as per PMC6462169. It does take a few weeks to begin to work. Even mild improvements stack up. It may not eliminate the need for an additional intervention, but it can mean the difference betwee…

Again, I read that and tried various forms.

Yes, they do help a bit. No, they don't help a lot. The study you cited find only a weak effect on some endpoints.

Same for fish oil and various omega-3 acids. The effects are either weak or in some cases non-existent ( https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1709691 ).

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#258

Post by cyberax »

OutOfHere wrote: post #255
cyberax wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only relevant subdivision of PFAS is by chain length: small, medium, large. PFOA and PFOS have 8-member fluorinated chains. And they are dangerous, with clear dose-dependent effects. PFHO has a 6-member fluorinated chain, and it has no known toxic effects. > Even so, they all accumulate in the environment. So does silicon oxide. Or a lot of other "terminal" compounds. The questions that need to be asked are: 1.…

Don't confuse silicon oxide with a PFAS. It is quite the negligent and hazardous fallacy to put them in the same bucket. One has been around for billions of years. The other hardly has any research, and will take at least a decade more of data and research before we know what's it is capable of. You are in no way smart enough to understand and consider all the pathways, uptake mechanisms, and consequences that are af…

The same argument applies to literally everything, including doing nothing.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#259

Post by inferiorhuman »

daveguy wrote: post #247
inferiorhuman wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most (and the biggest) BCBS licensees are for-profit. Kaiser is not but is still eye wateringly expensive. For me, a silver plan will be about $700-800 next year. And then you take a look at what a bronze plan covers…

This is correct. BCBS is for profit and most others are. Kaiser Foundation Health Plan is one of the few not for profit insurances and only available in 8 states.

Kaiser is the biggest HMO in the country (and available in DC).

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#260

Post by averageRoyalty »

dotancohen wrote: post #44
averageRoyalty wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I'd prefer to go to the pharmacy and just pay my $20 and go.

Do you prefer sunny (Greece) or snowy (Norway)? You can just pay your $20 and go. It is an option.

I'm happy in both (Australia). But thanks!
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