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Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

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Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#251

Post by jibal »

rkapsoro wrote: post #74
dalbaugh wrote: post #5

Unfortunately, I don't think any additional evidence will convince vaccine skeptics of the safety of mRNA vaccines

This is the wrong attitude to take to the problem. While I grant there were many who were disposed to be irrational skeptics, lots of skepticism was generated by dishonest messaging, coercive mandates, and punitive limitations on dissenting speech. Institutions took an end-justifies-the-means strategy, and many smelled a rat. Even now, online, you see right wing users continuing to lament over vaccine injuries, and o…

Completely wrong about the facts. Long COVID is real and not restricted to those on the left. Right wingers constantly "lament" over all sorts of bogeymen, rarely anything from personal experience. Most talk about vaccine injuries is based on misuse of VAERS.

> lots of skepticism was generated by dishonest messaging

Yes, from right wing media ... which you are echoing. Dead bodies were overflowing and public health officials were acting in good faith to try to deal with it. Right wingers and good faith are complete strangers.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#252

Post by jibal »

dionian wrote: post #185
sp4cec0wb0y wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Skeptics" is a very kind term for these people. I bet my life if you polled these people, they have not read any material on the matter.

I thought skepticism was a key part of science

That's why they are criticizing the application of the term to antivaxxers.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#253

Post by relaxing »

ucoclddau wrote: post #142

> Sensitivity analysis revealed that vaccinated individuals consistently had a lower risk of death, regardless of the cause This sounds like a red flag to me if you're trying to isolate the COVID vaccine as something safe. Table 2 data showed less drownings, less car crashes, less falls, less deaths related to chromosomal abnormalities... How can there not be a confounding variable or two here?

Not being an idiot who takes dumb risks like being unvaccinated certainly does seem confounding.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#254

Post by jibal »

andreygrehov wrote: post #169
ceejayoz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't lying , in the sense that "Hitler provided free food, transportation, and housing to Europe's Jews" isn't technically a lie . They are using a technically correct piece of data to deeply mislead you. Other pieces of data readily available to us reveal the sleight of hand.

Okay, let's run a proof by contradiction. Assume you're right: VAERS is useless for causality and the 10 deaths are not real or not proven. What possible benefits does RFK Jr. get from dramatically restricting a vaccine using data he knows is meaningless and will be shredded in 24 hours by every fact-checker and cardiologist on HN/Twitter/younameit? If he just wanted to scare people for no reason, the rational move i…

You have no idea what a proof by contradiction is.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#255

Post by alex989 »

margalabargala wrote: post #224
dionian wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with vaccines, i just dont want my kids to particpate in the experiemnt for a disease that they have 0% chance of dying from.

Which disease is that? I'm not aware of any disease that's commonly vaccinated against that has a 0% death rate in children.

The Covid deaths were measured in thousands before they could find a single individual under 18 yrs old who died from it. The only reason to vaccinate kids was to try to prevent them from spreading it to adults. Right from the beginning (eg. With the cruise ship that was infected), it was extremely obvious that the main factor in survivability was age. The younger you were, the safer it was. Weight was also very important but we learned that later

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#256

Post by jibal »

Lionga wrote: post #190
jandrese wrote: post #20

I have to admit I checked the author on this paper. No surprise it is from outside of the US. It's hard to imagine a US institution releasing a scientific study that directly contradicts the administration's viewpoints out of fear of reprisal via loss of funding or even shakedowns. I just hope this doesn't elicit some unhinged Truth Social post about evil Frenchmen trying to poison our bodies.

It goes the other way too. It's hard to imagine a {EU,German,whatever} institution releasing a scientific study that directly contradicts the administration's viewpoints out of fear of reprisal via loss of funding or even shakedowns.

Nonsensical whataboutism.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#257

Post by trts »

vkou wrote: post #218
Palomides wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doing a double blind study of a vaccine that seems to work very well for a potentially lethal disease seems morally questionable

And when you do, the critics will just shift the goal posts, again.

most of the critics of this particular vaccine are the ones that took it. either the people who got covid anyway or were injured by it.

it was incredibly destructive for trust in the medical establishment to oversell / mandate it and market aggressively as "safe and effective". while most vaccine risks are in the 10s per 100k or 1M, nearly everybody knows somebody else who had an adverse reaction to one of the covid shots.

nearly everybody observed that you still get and spread covid anyway. that is disconnected from the aggressive messaging from the CDC and the fear and shame campaign from the last US administration.

criticism of a specific vaccine or policy does not make someone an anti-vaxxer that moves goalposts. the establishment is responsible for the skepticism it engendered against itself by its hubris

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#258

Post by bloqs »

simonster wrote: post #172
hannob wrote: post #31

I found the intro very confusing, tbh. Particularly the "no increased risk of all-cause mortality". I mean, if we assume the vaccines worked, we'd certainly expect a decreased risk of all-case mortality (because "all-case mortality" certainly includes "covid mortality"). Reading "no increase" seems to imply "it doesn't change anything". Yeah, technically, the sentence does not say that ("no increase" can mean "no dec…

The problem is that 25% lower risk of all-cause mortality is too big to be explained solely by the vaccine. The reduction is similar when excluding deaths due to COVID-19, and is probably driven by people who got the vaccine being different in some ways that the observational study isn’t controlling for.

Not getting the vaccine is statisically correlated with distrust in traditional medicine, and suceptibility to giving undue attention and credit to unfounded and unsound practices.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#259

Post by jibal »

jansan wrote: post #179

We should not forget, that in most countries people who were unvaccinated came under severe social pressure. They often lost their jobs or got banned from social circles. You were basically rendered an outcast by not being vaccinated. So taking the vaccine did not only affect your immune system, but also gave you a higher social status. And there are plenty of studies that show that a lower social status significantl…

On the other hand, what would an intellectually honest comment look like?

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#260

Post by ericmay »

somenameforme wrote: post #144
ericmay wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it would depend on the results. The problem is that most people are bad at risk assessment. If COVID-19 vaccine increased their risk of premature death by .0000001% they point to that and say sure not taking my risk! Despite the fact that they'd be at much more risk of dying by getting the disease, or just hopping in their car and driving down the street to get a loaf of bread of whatever. If you showed say,…

The thing is people 'on the other side' think exactly the same, but come to different conclusions. For instance what do you think the chances of a healthy 20 year old male with 0 comorbidities of dying from COVID are? And what do you think his chances of suffering a significant case of myocarditis or pericarditis from the vaccine is? By "significant" I mean a case that's significant enough to result in active diagnos…

Let's start with this question:

> For instance what do you think the chances of a healthy 20 year old male with 0 comorbidities of dying from COVID are?

Much more likely than dying from the vaccine.

Also, and this is very important, at the time the vaccine was developed and released to the general public it was even more unknown what the fatality truly would be. We weren't totally sure as a species how the virus might mutate... maybe it would become more deadly? Maybe it would kill young people specifically even if they were otherwise healthy? Maybe by not getting the vaccine with less risk to you as the healthy 20 year old means you get COVID-19 and get "long COVID" (which I'm not sure is a real thing anyway, but I digress) and sure you didn't die but now your life sucks some.

The problem with "the other side"'s line of reasoning is that there was a specific concern with "risk" of the COVID-19 vaccine that didn't translate into practical reality and wasn't being assessed relative to the broader risk of getting COVID-19 itself or other general risks we undertake everyday.

Another way you can slice this up is, well, there's no risk of getting the vaccine, but getting sick sucks so even one day of being sick is well worth getting a shot for just to not get sick. "What about the risk" there's no real risk. If you think there's a risk, the risk is higher for getting COVID or whatever.

It all comes back to this perceived risk of COVID-19 vaccines (thank you to China, Russia, Iran, etc.) and improper assessment of risk.

Relative to getting COVID-19 there was no risk. Relative to the dumb risks people take everyday it is even less risky. The only difference is people are sitting around reading about it on social media and being stupid.

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