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Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

volts.wtf

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Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#251
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big reason why hybrid's are generally a bad idea. Their batteries wear out a lot quicker than the batteries on EV's.

The batteries in a hybrid are much smaller (~1.3 kWh for a Prius), and so cost much less to replace.

The vast majority of EV owners will spend $0 to replace their batteries since the batteries last longer than the rest of the car does.

Edit: part of that is that a Prius with 250,000 miles needing its second battery replacement is still a valuable car with a reasonable expectation of a lot more miles. OTOH a Tesla at 250,000 miles needing its first battery replacement...

Similarly Chrysler hybrid owners spend less money on battery replacements than Toyota hybrid owners. Not a compliment, it means they're scrapping their cars earlier.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of Teslas sold up to 2014 is less than 1% of all Teslas sold. Tesla has an 8-year battery and drivetrain warranty but they don't necessarily fail after that date.

there is an ubiquitous failure of Panasonic-created cells for Tesla. I made a research on forums, because I wanted one, and investigated why there is such a price drop. Cars getting close to the age of 8 years immediately drop on price to even 10k usd. It's because if you get your battery replaced on warranty - you won. Otherwise it often deteriorates suddenly.

It’s understandable that people would avoid out of warrant EVs, we don’t have that many years of data on old EVs yet.

Anecdotal forum posts are not a great source of statistical data.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the average hides a lot of information. the largest peak load is often an electric stove, which is regularly greater than 1,500 kW. Also, this idea that higher usage overlap with the sun being out is laughably wrong. Solar noon is between 11 AM and 2 PM. Very few people are home at that time. There is a reason that peak grid demand in almost every country is in the early evening.

> the largest peak load is often an electric stove, which is regularly greater than 1,500 kW. Does that change anything about what I said? This is specifically about "if you do have supplementary house batteries". > Also, this idea that higher usage overlap with the sun being out is laughably wrong. The reason we have the duck curve is that insolation and demand largely overlap (especially when we're talking about th…

Everything you describe is true only in some places, likely California. In much of the rest of the world, electricity demand peaks in the evening, when the sun is low in the sky and continues well into the evening, when the sun isn’t out. Notice how even the Wikipedia page about the duck curve lists mainly California. Even in Australia and the UK, daylight hours and electricity demand mostly do not overlap.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#254
post #234
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it worth using heat pumps in this setup (in addition to resistive elements)? I understand they can't reach the absolute temperature of resistive heating, but from an efficiency POV for the first few tens of degrees they are much more efficient.

Efficiency allows you to use less solar panels, but more solar panels are cheaper than a heat pump. I think the ratio is about 5:1 at this point and widening.

To be concrete, I'm told that recently in the US a certain 34000btu/hour (10kW) output heat pump consuming up to 14A at 220V at the compressor (3kW) cost US$2700 installed, which is 27¢ per peak watt of output. But https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preis... gives a price of €0.055 per peak watt (US$0.065/Wp) for low-cost solar panels. So the heat pump costs, in some sense, 4.2 times as much as the solar panels.

But the heat pump doesn't save you 10kW over resistive heating when it's running full-tilt. It saves you 10-3 = 7kW. So it costs 39¢ per watt of saved energy, which is 6 times as much as the solar panels.

In some simplified theoretical sense, if you decide you need another 10kW of heating for your house, you could spend US$2700 on this heat pump, and also buy 3000 Wp of solar panels to power it, costing US$194, for a total cost of US$2894. Or you could buy 10000 Wp of solar panels, costing US$645, and a resistive wire, costing US$10, for a total cost of US$655. US$655 is almost five times cheaper than US$2894. (4.4 times cheaper.)

There are a lot of factors that this simplified cost estimate overlooks; for example:

• Maybe you need to run the heater 16 hours a day but you only get sunlight 7 hours a day, either because it's winter in Norway, or because there are tall pine trees that shade your property most of the day, and you can't put the panels up on the trees. So maybe in some sense one watt of peak heater output is worth 2.3 watts of peak solar panel output. Or maybe it's the other way around, where your house only needs active heating during a few hours at night, so one watt of peak heater output is only worth 0.43 watts of peak solar panel output.

• The prices are in different countries. Solar panels are more expensive in the US, even wholesale.

• US$2700 is the retail price of the heat pump, including installation and warranty, and 6.5¢/Wp is the wholesale price of low-cost solar panels with no warranty ("Minderleistungs-Solarmodule, B-Ware, Insolvenzware, Gebrauchtmodule, PV-Module mit eingeschränkter oder ohne Garantie, die in der Regel auch keine Bankability besitzen.") Even in Europe the retail price of solar panels is three or four times this.

• Driving a resistive heating element from solar panels is considerably easier than driving a heat pump from solar panels; adapting a heating element to run on lower voltage is just a matter of connecting more wires to the middle of it, while adapting a heat pump to run on lower voltage may involve redesigning the whole power supply board or even rewinding the motor. Which is in a hermetically sealed refrigerant circuit, by the way, which you'd have to reseal. In practice, you'd just buy an inverter, but a 3000-watt inverter is expensive.

• As you said, for sensible-heat thermal storage, the heat pump craps out at about 50° or 60°, while any garden-variety resistive heating element (plus a lot of crappy improvised ones) will be just fine at 600° or 700°. That means you need ten times as much thermal mass for the same amount of storage. Sand is dirt cheap, but once you get into the tens of tonnes, even dirt isn't really cheap.

Despite such complications, I still think that pair of numbers is a useful summary of the situation: the heat pump costs 39¢ per watt saved, while the solar panel costs 6.5¢ per watt produced.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dunking on Tesla is its own industry these days, it seems. Are you suggesting Tesla is criticized without good reason ?

Idk enough but I assume there are good reasons, however when a website is biased and finds even bad reasons to hate that's still a problem right?

Bad reasons to hate something are bad press for Tesla, and how many people are going to read past a headline that confirms their bias? This isn't limited to Tesla, mind you, and is a broader statement on clickbait, and the state of the Internet and media and society today. Of course, anybody on Tesla's side knows to take Electrek and the rest of the Inernet’s coverage with a grain of salt, but with rabid fanboys on both sides, it's hard to know how large a grain of salt, and when.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe it did? Delta of 550 degrees Kelvin multiplied by 1000J per kg per Kelvin.

7.913e10 / ( 5.5e2 * 1.0e3 ) = 1.438e5, not 1.438e8 When doing calculations like this I just fire up a lisp and enter the thing to be calculated as lisp form.

I use units(1), which also helps me avoid dimensional errors (dividing when I should have multiplied, etc.):

   You have: 7.913e10 J / 550K / (1J/g/K)
   You want: kg
     * 143872.73
     / 6.9505876e-06
maxerickson says, "Still big number," and 144 tonnes would typically be an unwieldy quantity of material if you had to buy it. But Standard Thermal's intention is not to buy dirt, just pile up already-on-site dirt with a bulldozer or excavator. If we assume 1.3 tonnes/m³, that's 110m³, or, in medieval units, 144 cubic yards. https://www.eaglepowerandequipment.com/blog/2022/03/how-much... tells us:

> An excavator could be used to dig anywhere from 350 to 1,000 cubic yards per day, depending on a number of factors including bucket capacity, type of ground, operator skill and efficiency level, and more. (...)

> One of the biggest factors that impact how much an excavator can dig in one day is the unit’s bucket size, which typically ranges from 0.5 to 1.5 cubic yards of bucket capacity. Most common regular-size excavators have a 1 cubic yard bucket capacity, and mini excavators are closer to the 0.5 cubic yard capacity.

So, with this number, we're talking about a few hours of work for a "mini excavator". https://www.bigrentz.com/rental-locations/pennsylvania/pitts... tells us that a "4,000 lb. mini excavator" rents for US$197 per day. So the expense of moving the dirt is not really significant, compared to other household projects such as replacing the roof, insulating the walls, or repainting the exterior.

Standard Thermal mentions that they are in effect firing the clay in the ground, that they've had significant trouble with resistance-heater reliability, and that their objective is to power steam-turbine power stations with the stored heat. These three facts lead me to believe that they're targeting a temperature closer to 1000° than to 600°.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As we pointed out, PV is still trouncing nuclear in China. So if the difference is smaller there, it's still in favor of solar. Storage is another matter here, but even there costs for batteries have simply collapsed. Understand that massive storage is needed even in a nuclear-powered economy. If all the 283 million cars and trucks in the US were replaced with 70 kWh BEVs, the storage would be enough to power the US…

> As we pointed out, PV is still trouncing nuclear in China. So if the difference is smaller there, it's still in favor of solar. Sure. Solar is easy to scale when you don't care about reliability, nobody is arguing with that. But it's another issue entirely when you need a stable grid. I'm not aware of any countries (even tropical ones) that managed anything close to 100% renewables with solar. E.g. Hawaii has to pa…

And nuclear is scalable if you force other sources off the grid in favor of nuclear (and force customers to not use renewables "behind the meter").

In a fair grid, solar and wind get built out, and the residual demand has no baseload component. Unless nuclear is given the right to force other sources off the grid it becomes inappropriate.

In Texas now there is no chance of new nuclear construction. ERCOT is a competitive market and new nuclear simply doesn't make sense.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#258

NO! first only if industry and government grow some gonads and fully standardise the cells, and hardware for battery packs to allow for quick and easy dissasembly, testing, repair, and reuse, for off grid, and secondary mobile use, as industry will never trust used components for primary aplications, it is impossible to overstate how allergic industry is to this..... second sodium is comming NOW!, and it is cheaper a…

"NO!" while companies already do this successfully. But hey, why not being negative first eh? ;P

successfull?, maybe, we will see if fires, insurance, and end of life disposal costs leave any roe, plus there are no large scale used car battery grid storage plants, just green washing for data centers, where they are most definitly worried about fires, given the huge spacing between units, green washing/cred,scamenomics,, but most certainly, not grid scale

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#259
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7.913e10 / ( 5.5e2 * 1.0e3 ) = 1.438e5, not 1.438e8 When doing calculations like this I just fire up a lisp and enter the thing to be calculated as lisp form.

I use units(1), which also helps me avoid dimensional errors (dividing when I should have multiplied, etc.): You have: 7.913e10 J / 550K / (1J/g/K) You want: kg * 143872.73 / 6.9505876e-06 maxerickson says, "Still big number," and 144 tonnes would typically be an unwieldy quantity of material if you had to buy it. But Standard Thermal's intention is not to buy dirt, just pile up already-on-site dirt with a bulldozer…

600 C is about what a coal fired power plant would use. And 600 C is around the maximum that you want if you're using cheap steel for the pipes. Much beyond that and creep becomes a problem. So I don't think 1000 C is their target.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#260
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use units(1), which also helps me avoid dimensional errors (dividing when I should have multiplied, etc.): You have: 7.913e10 J / 550K / (1J/g/K) You want: kg * 143872.73 / 6.9505876e-06 maxerickson says, "Still big number," and 144 tonnes would typically be an unwieldy quantity of material if you had to buy it. But Standard Thermal's intention is not to buy dirt, just pile up already-on-site dirt with a bulldozer…

600 C is about what a coal fired power plant would use. And 600 C is around the maximum that you want if you're using cheap steel for the pipes. Much beyond that and creep becomes a problem. So I don't think 1000 C is their target.

Hmm! Interesting! I would have thought that 600° would be close to the minimum for producing supercritical steam, so any energy stored up to 600° would be "overhead" that couldn't be effectively recovered—only the heating above that. And I assumed they would have to use cheap ceramic for the pipes, because oxidation is usually a problem for cheap steel even below 600°.
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