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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#251

Post by em-bee »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #183
thephyber wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different lens to view this: If you benefit from receiving stolen property, does the law force you to return it? One way of interpreting your scare quotes is that the executives turned a health insurer into a law violating company. Obviously there are burdens of proof and this is most likely not possible to prosecute (it sounds like the health insurer has already shrunk and based on the date of the anecdote above,…

> If you benefit from receiving stolen property, does the law force you to return it? The general answer to that is: it depends on a lot of factors, but sometimes yes and sometimes no. The specific answer varies between jurisdictions, I think even between different US states and certainly between countries. It's often relevant whether you knew or should reasonably have known at the time of purchase that the property…

well it depends, if you buy a car stolen from me, then i should get the car back, no matter what. if you didn't know that it was stolen, you have a claim against the person who sold you the car, but not me. but if that person can't return the money, then you are out of luck, just as when you are falling for a scam. not your fault, but your damage nontheless.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#252

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

jcz_nz wrote: post #115
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

Same thing happened to patients with AIDS, in the 1990s. It was disgusting. May still be going on.

People don't really care about drug addicts and gay folks, though (there's a fairly significant number of folks that think they "deserve" it), so it didn't get as much attention.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#253

Post by hvb2 »

teiferer wrote: post #225
andrepd wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit disingenuous to argue "they shouldn't get life without the possibility of parole" when in fact most of this economic white-collar crime goes completely unpunished, or at best gets a fine targeted at the company and never at the individual people who committed the crimes.

To the contrary. I do find it a disingenuous argument to say "most of this kind of crime goes unpunished, so the cases we do punish, we have to punish for life". The solution is not harder punishments for those that are punished, but punishing more of them.

Isn't that exactly how the criminal justice system works? Because you know you're not going to catch all the criminals you want the punishment to serve as a deterrent?

Punishing more of them is easily said, when the crime is much harder to prove than shoplifting for example. And I'm skipping the fact that the shoplifter will be represented by an overworked public defender while the exec has a team of lawyers lined up that probably are payed by the company that got richer off illegal behavior

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#255

Post by gadders »

anonymousDan wrote: post #195
ruszki wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the country. It’s not possible to operate large companies in Hungary without paying to the prime minister’s family. When I lived there, I signed a paper at a large multinational company as a simple developer. The paper’s only purpose was to channel EU funds to the family. I was naive, and I thought that it’s a real project, with real work. It wasn’t. Later I realised why some of my coworkers were agains…

Looks like Trump has taken a leaf out of Orban's notebook. What a depressing situation to be in.

[flagged]

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#256

Post by Spooky23 »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

If you commit any number of stupid or criminal acts, you are legally blacklisted from the financial industry for life.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#257

Post by basisword »

Filligree wrote: post #227
testing22321 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true in the US, but very far from reality in countries that have universal healthcare and a strong social safety net.

That safety net does not extend to paying the interest on your house loan.

It does in some places. Firstly banks will usually let you pause or significantly reduce mortgage payments while unemployed. You then make up for it with increased payments (for a period of time) when you regain employment. There is also government help in the form of a loan to pay the interest on your mortgage while unemployed if you've been unemployed for a certain period of time (longer than the bank grace period).

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#258

Post by kstenerud »

bestouff wrote: post #247
kstenerud wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. We have laws against that sort of thing precisely because it's such a common human reaction to an injustice. You can even see the evidence in many of the sister comments here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Of course, but having their families profit from the money earnt via these evil actions doesn't seem fair either.

We already have long-established legal precedent for dealing with such issues and much more. It can actually get quite complicated - which is why we defer to the experts and move slowly on such subjects.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#259

Post by askonomm »

Loughla wrote: post #242
teiferer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

Depends where you are, I guess. In a prison-first rehabilitation-last country like USA, yes. In EU, many countries will close your criminal record after some years (7 in Estonia) at which point nobody other than law enforcement itself can see that you have a record. Not to mention that even if the crime you did was fairly recent, no company has the ability to check your background without your permission, and even then it is not something that is being done in the vast majority of places.

In other words, once you've carried out your sentence, in 99% of the cases it's done and behind you, and you can go on living a normal life without anyone else needing to know.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#260

Post by LeifCarrotson »

watwut wrote: post #230
teiferer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Being forced to change the profession is not the same as being in jail forever or being unable employable forever. > Beyond knowing what you did, and remembering the punishment, which for most people is already a burden heavy enough. Like, seriously? These people do not feel bad, there is no heavy burden. They are proud of how they earned money, feel like any prosecution is grave injustice and would do it again. Wide…

They are proud that they earned money, the how (positive or negative) is completely immaterial.

Others who want to earn money and are likewise ambivalent about the means will see a felony conviction for causing grievous public harm in the pursuit of giant piles of money as an endorsement and hire the "reformed" exec at the first opportunity.

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