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An opinionated critique of Duolingo

isomorphism.xyz

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Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#251
post #234

I want to learn German. What should I use? I planned on starting with Duolingo, but I'm not sure anymore.

You can still start with Duolingo. Just know that if you are serious about your language learning, there may be better things in terms of learning per unit time or learning per unit cognitive effort.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#252

Each time I read this kind of feedback, I wonder if there should be a free, community driven, alternative to Duolingo. - Content may be provided by contributors (like Duolingo did for many years) - It could be supported by donations (I believe the costs can be kept low) My feeling is that lots of problems with Duolingo are caused by monetization (and many things were better in Duolingo a few years ago). I'm still not…

I'm making a free/unmonetized language learning app as my side project. (I made it out of anger at duolingo, lol.) You can check it out at https://yap.town . It's sophisticated in some ways but simplistic in others, for example there are not yet any stories. If you want to collaborate, hit me up, my email is in my bio. I think the world needs an actually-good language learning app

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#253
post #160
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the hack? I'm guessing there isn't one? Asking as it's "hacker news" after all, I remember reading how North Korean agents would watch shows like Friends for hours on end to become familiar with English, is that a hack?

I'm urgently trying to learn a language and I've done a lot of research on this. There's no one hack, but here are my top three: - Anki - Focus on producing speech over everything else, it's the hardest part 90% of the time. Practice production enough and everything else will follow. - Work on your accent much earlier than you think you should. If your accent is better than it should be, native speakers will naturall…

There are some new AI apps out there that I would put in the “hack” category for being a lot more effective than all the stuff I used in the past (which also included Duolingo, Anki, etc). The one I used the most over three months to refresh my Spanish is Langua (bad name with too much competition, but I put the link below).

This app, and I’m sure others, is a polished “overlay” of sorts on top of one LLM or another, but it’s very well done. By far the best way of learning a language is conversation with a native speaker. This puts 90% of that in your pocket on demand. You can chat (out loud) on various topics, or any topic, and this is augmented with various tools, way to save words to a vocabulary list with a flash card UI, etc. After each conversation you get an evaluation. I found it a lot more fun, and a lot more effective, than anything else I’ve tried.

https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/langua-ai-language-learning/id...

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something charming about old language learning shows, both overt and "covert" ones like Hélène et les Garçons. I remember Muzzy in Gondoland, BBC's English language teaching cartoon from the 80s. I wonder why language learning apps aren't more into making entertainment in the language they're proselytizing these days.

Videos are expensive to make and expensive to host. Hard for an app to make money off them.

That makes sense. These old shows probably got government funding for their language promotion mission.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#255

2800 day streak here, primarily in Finnish. I haven't been a fan of the app for a long time, but the problem I've always had switching is the question: What else? There might be a thousand different Spanish courses, but for less popular languages there just aren't many choices, the fact that they still host one is great. Yes I haven't really learnt much, it's more maintaining what I do know, but I'd've lost it withou…

> 2800 day streak here, primarily in Finnish. I haven't been a fan of the app for a long time, but the problem I've always had switching is the question: What else?

Something from this list https://comprehensibleinputwiki.org/wiki/Finnish or reading with lute if everything there is too advanced.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year they replaced all the recordings of native speakers with ML-generated recordings, in both Russian and Ukrainian (probably other languages too but those are the two I have). The ML-generated recordings are terrible, for example they can't deal with the ambiguity betweeen vse and vsyo (written identically in Russian) so they always say vsyo. They'll sometimes randomly say the names of individual letters inste…

The ambiguity goes away if you write them as "все" and "всё". Diacritics, accents, umlauts and cedillas are useful; if you omit them you do a disservice to the reader.

Maybe so, but omitting them on ё is standard practice in Russian. A language learner who doesn't learn to deal with the ambiguity of the omitted diacritics will struggle to read real-world texts.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immersion and transferring patterns you already know from other languages. Language Transfer is a good completely free resource: https://www.languagetransfer.org

Transferring patterns only really works when the language you’re learning is similar to ones you already know. I’m learning Chinese, and to my Western mind it feels like an alien language.

For sure, some common ground is needed. Madrigal's is a famous example of LT that almost exclusively focuses on transfer itself, because English and Spanish are reasonably similar.

LT's method goes a bit further though, hence why there are courses on Arabic, Swahili and (upcoming) Japanese. Chinese might be even further removed, but the LT courses are about learning to _think_ about how the language works, and the format of the course (teacher + median student + you) goes a long way to encourage this. Beyond Madrigal's "look how similar these words are".

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#258
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just sad to hear for me as a Russian. Russia and the Russian culture are a lot older than the current war and will still be around long after the war, but a lot of people just cannot draw a line between the two.

This is how it goes after any major war of aggression. Happened to Germany, Japan and USSR after the WW2. Germany and Japan are both generally seen in a favourable light now. It seems that the reputation takes about two generations to recover once the hostilities are over and the country has started to reform. Russia never really attempted a real reform in the first place, so for it the outcome was different. Russia…

Then again Israel is annexing land and actively committing genocide and voicing any anger is seen a deeply antisemitic and completely taboo. You will see a reflexive assurance that you can not equate the people with the government and so on.

My point is not Whataboutism. I don't want to relativate any war crimes done by anyone. I don't criticize people that lost relatives in Ukraine for using dehumanizing language like calling Russian soldiers orks. For the growing racist rhetoric that says the Russian culture were inherently imperialistic.

You might reflexively try to figure out whose narrative I am trying to push. What is my angle? I am not sure if this works or is even possible but maybe try to reflect on why you do this. Isn't it because it clashes with your own narrative? Which is not something you are allowed to notice because the West has no narrative, you are the one who is objectively right, only other people have a narrative.

So why is Russia and Israel seen so differently? Because there is Western geopolitical interest that people do so.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#259
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that Russia successfully managed to sidestep reputational damage despite neo-imperialism/warmongering in the past, specifically with the Chechen wars. I personally think this only worked out because it was easier to sell this as a civi-war-like internal conflict (and the situation was less obvious to other western nations than now). On the other hand, had the Ukraine invasion gone according to plan, I…

> But it was very interesting to see how quickly the Ukraine war turned Russias image (at least in Europe) from "slightly crazy, badass" into overt contempt. I think this is because while much of the Europe was willing to 'turn the page' from 90s onwards, that changed during the 2008 war in Georgia. Since then there was enough attention in the media to the 'frozen conflicts' (Abkhazia, Transdnistria), then since 2014…

This is a good point.

It seems to me that Russia could've easily kept pretending to be a slightly flawed democracy, and it would've been super effective in hoodwinking "the west", but they "blew it" with obvious assassinations even before the Ukraine war.

This raises the question: Why would you ever admit to be totalitarian or a dictator if you have to deal (economically/diplomatically) with softhearted democracies which really hate that?

I think the answer is that just lying about this (to improve your reputation abroad) by itself hurts your local power base. Every signal in that direction undermines that image of strength that dictators rely on to keep in control, and no dictator can stay in power "against" the population because all the instruments to exert that power (prison/murder/army) rely themselves on (parts) of that population.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#260
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the hack? I'm guessing there isn't one? Asking as it's "hacker news" after all, I remember reading how North Korean agents would watch shows like Friends for hours on end to become familiar with English, is that a hack?

As others have said, immersion is the only way that you have control of. If you could de-age yourself, becoming a child would also help immensely, as child brains are much better at learning languages.

Children spend pretty much every waking hour - every day - learning language. If you were to put in that amount of constant effort, you might also learn language just as effectively as a child. Okay, probably not just as effectively, but I think people underestimate the amount of effort children put into learning language. That's practically their job for the first 5+ years of life.

The main reason why people fail to learn languages is that they do not put in enough time. There is no magic shortcut, despite countless language-learning programs claiming they have one. You have to spend a significant amount of time every day working at it.

Having good resources (e.g., access to native speakers, competent instruction, a flashcard app like Anki) is important, but again, people fail mostly because they don't dedicate enough time towards the language.

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