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Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

julian.ac

251–260 of 266 posts

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still depend on physical resources and labor. They’re made by people and machines. There’s never been more resources going into information systems than right now, and AI accelerated that greatly. Think of all the server farms being built next to power plants.

Yes. Of course. All information has a substrate at any given time. But the amount of computation per resource drops because computation is not something tied to any unit matter. Nor any particular substrate. It is not the same as a steam engine, which can only be made so efficient. The amount of both matter and labor per quantity of computing power is dropping exponentially. Right? See a sibling reply on the physical…

> The amount of both matter and labor per quantity of computing power is dropping exponentially. Right?

Right. The problem is the demand is increasing exponentially.

It’s not like when computers got 1000x more powerful we were able to get by with 1/1000x of them. Quite the opposite (or inverse, to be more precise).

Just to go back to my original point, I think drawing a comparison that physical systems compete for physical resources and implying information systems don’t is misleading at best. It’s especially obvious right now with all the competition for compute going on.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#252
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. The argument is not that it will keep growing exponentially forever (obviously that is physically impossible), rather that: - given a sustained history of growth along a very predictable trajectory, the highest likelihood short term scenario is continued growth along the same trajectory. Sample a random point on an s-curve and look slightly to the right, what’s the most common direction the curve continu…

My point is that the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. The problem isn’t that exponential growth is hard to visualise. The problem is that LLMs, as advanced and useful a technique as it is, isn’t suited for AGI and thus will never get us even remotely to the stage of AGI. The human like capabilities are really just smoke and mirrors. It’s like when people anthropomorp…

AI services are/will be going hybrid. Just like we have seen in search, with thousands of dedicated subsystems handling niches behind the single unified ui element or api call.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. The problem isn’t that exponential growth is hard to visualise. The problem is that LLMs, as advanced and useful a technique as it is, isn’t suited for AGI and thus will never get us even remotely to the stage of AGI. The human like capabilities are really just smoke and mirrors. It’s like when people anthropomorp…

AI services are/will be going hybrid. Just like we have seen in search, with thousands of dedicated subsystems handling niches behind the single unified ui element or api call.

“Hybrid” is just another way of saying “AI isn’t good enough to work independently”. Which is the crux of my point.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#254
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a stupid concept because it's behind every ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes the numbers are generally faked.

The numbers are fake, but the returns are real, until they aren't. If all you go off is past performance then you will fall for any scam.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#255

I am constantly astonished that articles like this even pass the smell test. It is not rational to predict exponential growth just because you've seen exponential growth before! Incidentally, that is not what people did during COVID, they predicted exponential growth for reasons . Specific, articulable reasons, that consisted of more than just "look, like go up. line go up more?". Incidentally, the benchmarks quoted…

> The length of tasks AI can do is doubling every 7 months The claim is "At time t0, an AI can solve a task that would take a human 2 minutes. At time t0+dt, they can solve 4-minutes tasks. At time t0+2dt, it's 8 minutes" and so on. I still find these claims extremely dubious, just wanted to clarify.

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Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#256

I am constantly astonished that articles like this even pass the smell test. It is not rational to predict exponential growth just because you've seen exponential growth before! Incidentally, that is not what people did during COVID, they predicted exponential growth for reasons . Specific, articulable reasons, that consisted of more than just "look, like go up. line go up more?". Incidentally, the benchmarks quoted…

> The length of tasks AI can do is doubling every 7 months The claim is "At time t0, an AI can solve a task that would take a human 2 minutes. At time t0+dt, they can solve 4-minutes tasks. At time t0+2dt, it's 8 minutes" and so on. I still find these claims extremely dubious, just wanted to clarify.

Yes, I get that, I did allow for it in my original comment. I remain convinced this is a gibberish metric - there is probably no such thing as "a task that would take a human 2 minutes", and certainly no such thing as "an AI that can do every task that would take a human 2 minutes".

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. The problem isn’t that exponential growth is hard to visualise. The problem is that LLMs, as advanced and useful a technique as it is, isn’t suited for AGI and thus will never get us even remotely to the stage of AGI. The human like capabilities are really just smoke and mirrors. It’s like when people anthropomorp…

>the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. Why do you think this? The rest of the comment is just rephrasing this point ("llms isn't suited for AGI"), but you don't seem to provide any argument.

Fair point.

Basically AGI describes human-like capabilities.

The problem with LLMs are that they’re, at their core, a token prediction model. Tokens, typically text, are given a numeric value and can then be used to predict what tokens should follow.

This makes them extremely good things like working with source code and other source of text where relationships are defined via semantics.

The problem with this is that it makes them very poor at dealing with:

1. Limited datasets. Smaller models are shown to be less powerful. So often LLMs need to inject significantly more information than a human would learn in their entire life time, just to approximate what that human might produce in any specific subject.

2. Learning new content. Here we have to rely on non-AI tooling like MCPs. This works really well under the current models because we can say “scrape these software development references” (etc) to keep itself up to date. But there’s no independence behind those actions. An MCP only works because it includes into the prompt how to use that MCP and why you should use that. Whereas if you look at humans, even babies know how to investigate and learn independently. Our ability to self-learn is one of the core principles of human intelligence.

3. Remember past content that resides outside of the original model training. I think this is actually a solvable problem in LLMs but there’s current behaviour of them is to bundle all the current interactions into the next prompt. In reality, the LLM hasn’t really remembered anything, you’re just reminding it about everything with each exchange. So each subsequent prompt gets longer and thus more fallible. It also means that context is always volatile. Basically it’s just a hack that only works because context sizes have grown exponentially. But if we want AGI then there needs to be a persistent way of retaining that context. There are some work around here, but they depend on tools.

4. any operation that isn’t semantic-driven. Things like maths, for example. LLMs have to call a tool (like MCPs) to perform calculations. But that requires having a non-AI function to return a result rather than the AI reason about maths. So it’s another hack. And there are a lot of domains that fall into this kind of category where complex tokenisation is simply not enough. This, I think, is going to be the biggest hurdle for LLMs.

5. Anything related to the physical world. We’ve all seen examples of computer vision models drawing too many fingers on a hand or have disembodied objects floating. The solutions here are to define what a hand should look like. But without an AI having access to a physical 3 dimensional world to explore, it’s all just guessing what things might look like. This is particularly hard for LLMs because they’re language models, not 3D coordinate systems.

There’s also the question about whether holding vector databases of token weights is the same thing as “reasoning”, but I’ll leave that argument for the philosophers.

I think a theoretical AGI might use LLMs as part of its subsystems. But it needs to leverage AI throughout, which LLMs cannot, as it needs handle topics that are more than just token relationships, which LLMs cannot do.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#258
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. The argument is not that it will keep growing exponentially forever (obviously that is physically impossible), rather that: - given a sustained history of growth along a very predictable trajectory, the highest likelihood short term scenario is continued growth along the same trajectory. Sample a random point on an s-curve and look slightly to the right, what’s the most common direction the curve continu…

My point is that the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. The problem isn’t that exponential growth is hard to visualise. The problem is that LLMs, as advanced and useful a technique as it is, isn’t suited for AGI and thus will never get us even remotely to the stage of AGI. The human like capabilities are really just smoke and mirrors. It’s like when people anthropomorp…

My problem with takes like this is it presumes a level of understanding of intelligence in general that we simply do not have. We do not understand consciousness at all, much less consciousness that exhibits human intelligence. How are we to know what the exact conditions are that result in human-like intelligence? You’re assuming that there isn’t some emergent phenomenon that LLMs could very well achieve, but have not yet.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the limits of LLMs will be hit long before we they start to take on human capabilities. The problem isn’t that exponential growth is hard to visualise. The problem is that LLMs, as advanced and useful a technique as it is, isn’t suited for AGI and thus will never get us even remotely to the stage of AGI. The human like capabilities are really just smoke and mirrors. It’s like when people anthropomorp…

My problem with takes like this is it presumes a level of understanding of intelligence in general that we simply do not have. We do not understand consciousness at all, much less consciousness that exhibits human intelligence. How are we to know what the exact conditions are that result in human-like intelligence? You’re assuming that there isn’t some emergent phenomenon that LLMs could very well achieve, but have n…

I'm not making a philosophical argument about what human-like intelligence is. I'm saying LLMs have many weaknesses that make in incapable of performing basic functions that humans take for granted. Like count and recall.

I go into much more detail here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45422808

Ostensibly, AGI might use LLMs in parts of it's subsystems. But the technology behind LLMs doesn't adapt to all of the problems that AGI would need to solve.

It's a little like how the human brain isn't just one homogeneous grey lump. There's different parts of the brain that specialize on different parts of cognitive processing.

LLMs might work for language processing, but that doesn't mean it would work for maths reasoning -- and in fact we already know it doesn't.

This is why we need tools / MCPs. We need ways of turning problems LLM cannot solve into standalone programs that LLMs can cheat and ask the answers for.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#260

I am flabbergasted by the naivety around predicting the future. While we have hints and suggestions, our predictions are best expressed as ranges of possibilities with varying weights. The hyperbolic among us like to pretend that predictions come in the form of precise lines of predetermined direction and curve; how foolish! Predicting exponential growth is exceptionally difficult. Asymptotes are ordinary, and they o…

[flagged]

It’s a matter of correctness and utility. You can improve your odds of correctness (and thus usefulness) by adjusting the scope of your projection.

This applies not only to predicting the future. Consider measuring something: you carefully choose your level of precision for practical reasons. Consider goal setting: you leave abundant room for variation because your goal is not expressed in hyper narrow terms, but you don’t leave it so loose that you don’t know what steps to take.

When expressed in sufficiently narrow terms, no one will ever predict anything. When expressed in sufficiently broad terms, everyone can predict everything. So the point is to modulate the scope until attaining utility.

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