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AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

elma.dev

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Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#251
post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

A junior would see the solution works and create a PR. A senior knows it works, why it works and what can be improved, then they open a PR. AI is great at a first draft of anything, code, images, text, but the real skill is turning that first draft into something good.

IMHO, not really, if you know what you want.

There will always be small things to fix, but if there needs to be a second draft, I would hazard that the PR was too big all along: a problem whether an AI is involved or not.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rewrite with another, more subtle mistake. That you must spend energy discovering and diagnosing.

> another, more subtle mistake. That you must spend energy discovering and diagnosing But this is literally what senior engineers do most of the time? Have juniors write code with direction and review that it isn't buggy?

Except that most of the code seniors review was written with intention, not just the most statistically most likely response to a given query. As a senior engineer, the kinds of mistakes that AI makes are much more bizarre then the mistakes junior engineers make

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs might make you feel faster (which helps with motivation!) and help with some of the very easy stuff but the critical part of your anecdote is that you haven't actually completed the extra work. The projects are only "NEARING" completion. I think that's very telling.

If the easy things are done faster you xan spend more time on the hard stuff. No need to spend 2 hours on making the UI for the MVP when an AI can make a decent UI in 2 min. Means you have 2 hours more to spend on the hard stuff.

Unless, as is often the case in my experience, the hard stuff consists largely of fixing bugs and edge cases in your implementation of the easy stuff. I've seen multiple people already end up forced back to the drawing board because their "easy stuff" AI implementation had critical flaws they only realized after they thought they were done. It's hard to prove counterfactuals, but I'm pretty confident they would have gotten it right the first time if they hadn't used AI, they're not bad engineers.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#254
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least you can ask AI to summarize a AGENT.md or something and it will read it diligently next time. As for humans, they might not have the motivation technical writing skill to document what they learnt. And even if they did, the next person might not have the patience to actually read it.

"Read diligently" - that’s a very optimistic statement. I can not count how many times Claude (LLM I am most familiar with, I had it write probably about 100KLOC in the past few months) explicitly disobeyed what was written in the instructions. Also, a good few times, if it were a human doing the task, I would have said they both failed to follow the instructions and lied about it and attempted to pretend they didn’t…

> Also, a good few times, if it were a human doing the task, I would have said they both failed to follow the instructions and lied about it and attempted to pretend they didn’t.

It's funny. Just yesterday I had the experience of attending a concert under the strong — yet entirely mistaken — belief that I had already been to a previous performance of the same musician. It was only on the way back from the show, talking with my partner who attended with me (and who had seen this musician live before), trying to figure out what time exactly "we" had last seen them, with me exhaustively listing out recollections that turned out to be other (confusingly similar) musicians we had seen live together... that I finally realized I had never actually been to one of this particular musician's concerts before.

I think this is precisely the "experience" of being one of these LLMs. Except that, where I had a phantom "interpolated" memory of seeing a musician I had never actually seen, these LLMs have phantom actually-interpolated memories of performing skills they have never actually themselves performed.

Coding LLMs are trained to replicate pair-programming-esque conversations between people who actually do have these skills, and are performing them... but where those conversations don't lay out the thinking involved in all the many implicit (thinking, probing, checking, recalling) micro-skills involved in actually performing those skills. Instead, all you get in such a conversation thread is the conclusion each person reaches after applying those micro-skills.

And this leads to the LLM thinking it "has" a given skill... even though it doesn't actually know anything about "how" to execute that skill, in terms of the micro-skills that are used "off-screen" to come up with the final response given in the conversation. Instead, it just comes up with a prediction for "what someone using the skill" looks like... and thinks that that means it has used the skill.

Even after a hole is poked in its use of the skill, and it realizes it made a mistake, that doesn't dissuade it from the belief that it has the given skill. Just like, even after I asked my partner about the show I recall us attending, and she told me that that was a show for a different (but similar) musician, I still thought I had gone to the show.

It took me exhausting all possibilities for times I could have seen this musician before, to get me to even hypothesize that maybe I hadn't.

And it would likely take similarly exhaustive disproof (over hundreds of exchanges) to get an LLM to truly "internalize" that it doesn't actually have a skill it believed itself to have, and so stop trying to use it. (If that meta-skill is even a thing that LLMs have ever learned from their training data — which I doubt. And even if they did, you'd be wasting 90% of a Transformer's context window on this. Maybe something that's worth keeping in mind if we ever switch back to basing our LLMs on RNNs with true runtime weight updates, though!)

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#255
post #103
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Really does not sound like that from your description. It sounds like coaching a noob, which is a lot of work in itself." And if this is true, you will have to coach AI each time whereas a person should advance over time.

And then they skip to another job for more money, and you start again with a new hire.

That's not a bad thing. It means you've added one more senior to the societal pool. A lot of the talent problems today are due to companies not wanting to train and focusing on cheap shortcut options like outsourcing or H1B

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> work mentoring the AI strikes me as less valuable then the same time spent mentoring a junior developer But where can you just "mentor" a junior? Hiring people is not so easy, especially not ones that are worth mentoring. Not every junior will be a willing, good recipient of mentoring, and that's if you manage to get one, given budget constraints and long lead times on hiring. And at best you end up with one or two…

If a junior is not willing to learn and grow, there is no future for that person in the organization. "Forever junior" is not a valid job title. Better not hire someone that is not good enough than having to deal with the consequences, I learned from my past mistakes.

Of course, and that's why it's not a simple choice between using AI and hiring a junior. Hiring and mentoring a junior is a lot more work for an uncertain payoff.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully after many generations of human interactions and complex analysis of group dynamics, we've found a solution. It's called 'don't be an asshole' and 'pay people competitively'. edit: because people are stupid, 'competitively' in this sense isn't some theoretical number pulled from an average, it's 'does this person feel better off financially working with you than others around them who don't work with you,…

The elephant in this particular room is that there are a tiny handful of employers that have so much money that they can and do just pay whatever amount is more than any of their competitors can possibly afford.

That shouldn't be a big deal since they're a finite portion of the market. You should have a robust enough model to handle people leaving, including unavoidable scenarios like retirement and death.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another, more subtle mistake. That you must spend energy discovering and diagnosing But this is literally what senior engineers do most of the time? Have juniors write code with direction and review that it isn't buggy?

Except that most of the code seniors review was written with intention, not just the most statistically most likely response to a given query. As a senior engineer, the kinds of mistakes that AI makes are much more bizarre then the mistakes junior engineers make

I've worked with many interns and juniors in my life and they've made very bizarre mistakes and had subtle bugs, so the difference in the kinds hasn't made much of a difference in the work I've had to do to review. Whether or not there was intention behind it didn't make a difference.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#259
post #233

Because juniors don't know when they're being taken down a rabbit hole. So they'll let the LLM go too deep in its hallucinations. I have a Jr that was supposed to deploy a terraform module I built. This task has been hanging out for a while so I went to check in on them. They told me the problem they're having and asked me to take a look. Their repo is a disaster, it's very obvious claude took them down a rabbit hole…

Unfortunately, the type of work you hate doing is perfect for a junior. Easy tasks to get a hold on the system.
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