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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#251

Post by dmix »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #141
varispeed wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Third Reich and the Stasi It looks like German population actually enjoys these things. Third time lucky? edit: how would you explain lack of protests or that the authors of proposal don't face criminal investigation? After all this is authoritarian regime refresh, just without the labels.

Yes, Germany is very hypocritical, a lot of people have short memories. On another hand, Germany is on the spotlight because it's the country which is going to decide at the end. Less critics about the usual suspects who love to restrict personal freedoms like France, Spain, Italy ..

Spain is particularly bad for meddling with the internet, mostly with regards to piracy.

While Germany has arrested many thousands of people for online speech, similar to the UK. But the UK gets much more media attention over it.

> Battling far-right extremism, Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/technology/germany-intern...

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#252

Post by trilogic »

rightbyte wrote: post #220
WithinReason wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't that a backdoor?

Backdoor kinda implies it is not used very much or it would be a front door.

But it is available for use. Corruption is not a fantasy but a reality. Usually who reach the top on political scale have seen it all, I mean all. Being polite to describe this reality use cases, (inside trading, political targeting, discrimination, monopoly etc). Who would know, who can stop it, who would dare!

What are the protection mechanisms? Are we suppose to hope that the untouchable/s is 100% honest?

It feels uncomfortable to say the least.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#254

Post by [deleted] »

Tenemo wrote: post #239
yuumei wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that with RIPA (2000, activated in 2007) UK has enforced key disclosure. It is illegal to fail to disclose a password for any data for any reason (including random data). I would say the UK has worse privacy than any other country on earth. I'm really hoping for plausible deniability to become more common to help protect against the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_King…

The UK has worse privacy than ANY other country on Earth? Really?

[deleted]

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#255

Post by izacus »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #109
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

European Commission is not a democratic body. No EU citizen voted for them.

Good thing that elected parliament needs to vote for this. So what's your point?

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#256

Post by burnte »

Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

> and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever.

And who is going to hold them accountable? They make the laws, they're the ones who should know best this is illegal, so if they don't care no one else will. Voters? I live in America so I've lost a lot of faith in people voting for politicians who will protect their rights.

I legitimately have no idea how to fix this type of problem. We spent the better part of the 20th century setting up systems to enable people to thrive and have expanded rights. And now the generations that benefited from all of that want to tear it down and take us back to feudal times with unelected, unaccountable, all-powerful leaders and a nobility class that owns everything and leaving 95% of people live in poverty and sickness. It's like we forgot how to raise strong people with good morals.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#257

Post by dns_snek »

flumpcakes wrote: post #237
dns_snek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, nonsense, bullshit, whatever you want to call it. Actual pedos will trivially bypass Chat Control by switching to a messaging service that doesn't enforce it, or even by sending encrypted ZIP files via any ordinary messaging service. > silk road was only busted because the guy had his http proxy responding on the VPS's IP and not just the tor eth Does this justify every browser reporting every URL you visit to…

> Yeah, nonsense, bullshit, whatever you want to call it. Actual pedos will trivially bypass Chat Control by switching to a messaging service that doesn't enforce it, or even by sending encrypted ZIP files via any ordinary messaging service. Yep, and then the politicians will create laws that outlaw encrypting zip files without a backdoor etc. That's my point, there's no nefarious plot here, it's just dumb laws to so…

> That's my point, there's no nefarious plot here, it's just dumb laws to solve real problems.

You don't know the plot any more than we do. Whether the current government is nefarious or not is quite irrelevant.

Chat Control is a surveillance and censorship tool that we're being pinkie-promised will only be used "for good". In reality it is a tool which can be repurposed for domestic oppression, political persecution, and crowd control overnight at the government's sole discretion.

> everyone is just pushing back on conspiracy grounds.

That's not a conspiracy, that's just a factual statement about the indiscriminate capabilities of this technology. Governments across the world have a near-100% track record of abusing their power. It's not a matter of "if", it's only a matter of "when".

Otherwise what should we do next? Abolish freedom of speech? You wouldn't be silly enough to believe that the government would imprison you for your political speech, would you? That's conspiratorial thinking.

> That's not going to win over the average person.

Why should we care? If the fact of the matter has been explained to them and they're still gullible enough to give up their most essential civil liberties in exchange for nothing, they're a lost cause and a waste of time.

I don't count on the average village idiot to save the day here, I expect the EU courts to strike the law because it clearly violates the charter of fundamental human rights.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#258

Post by varispeed »

dmix wrote: post #251
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Germany is very hypocritical, a lot of people have short memories. On another hand, Germany is on the spotlight because it's the country which is going to decide at the end. Less critics about the usual suspects who love to restrict personal freedoms like France, Spain, Italy ..

Spain is particularly bad for meddling with the internet, mostly with regards to piracy. While Germany has arrested many thousands of people for online speech, similar to the UK. But the UK gets much more media attention over it. > Battling far-right extremism, Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet…

Chat Control is extremist - a terrorist attack on civil liberties. If Germany were serious about its commitments, the architects behind this assault would already be facing prosecution. Instead, authorities focus on token speech prosecutions while leaving the machinery of mass surveillance untouched.

The optics are chilling: yesterday it was door-to-door searches under authoritarian regimes; today it’s device-to-device searches for wrongthink. That isn’t protecting against extremism - it’s repeating it with new tools.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#259

Post by dmix »

varispeed wrote: post #258
dmix wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is particularly bad for meddling with the internet, mostly with regards to piracy. While Germany has arrested many thousands of people for online speech, similar to the UK. But the UK gets much more media attention over it. > Battling far-right extremism, Germany has gone further than any other Western democracy to prosecute individuals for what they say online, testing the limits of free speech on the internet…

Chat Control is extremist - a terrorist attack on civil liberties. If Germany were serious about its commitments, the architects behind this assault would already be facing prosecution. Instead, authorities focus on token speech prosecutions while leaving the machinery of mass surveillance untouched. The optics are chilling: yesterday it was door-to-door searches under authoritarian regimes; today it’s device-to-devi…

Yes the arguments for free speech and privacy are self-evident. People always think they can add conditions, as if those conditions won't perpetually expand to greater and greater areas. Or become a power given to dangerous individuals who form future governments.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#260

Post by Gud »

Tenemo wrote: post #239
yuumei wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that with RIPA (2000, activated in 2007) UK has enforced key disclosure. It is illegal to fail to disclose a password for any data for any reason (including random data). I would say the UK has worse privacy than any other country on earth. I'm really hoping for plausible deniability to become more common to help protect against the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_King…

The UK has worse privacy than ANY other country on Earth? Really?

No other country has willingly turned itself into a total panopticon, no. Perhaps others would like to - but they don't have the resources.

You can't walk a fucking meter on the streets without being recorded by the nanny state.

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