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Black Swan Farming

paulgraham.com

251–260 of 321 posts

Re: Black Swan Farming

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad-hominems will get you nowhere. Also you appear not to have any idea how much waste exists in Pentagon contracting. Look up the writings of Robert Higgs, Winslow Wheeler, Dina Rasor etc etc etc When DoD is throwing billions of dollars around with merry abandon of course some of it ends up used for useful projects. They use up all their money and then get their budgets bumped up automatically by the politicians. And…

You talked yourself into nonsense. On waste in DoD, sure, but not the parts I was talking about. Some of the big waste was, say, getting AC working in Iraq and now getting Diesel fuel and jet fuel to Akrapistan. And the cost of the black oil to send a destroyer across the Pacific would really set one back. > Also you appear not to have any idea how much waste exists in Pentagon contracting. Nonsense. All my early car…

This is so silly. You don't have a startup idea until you have a product that you can sell to Grandma, that will work for her on a standalone basis. It can't require an Act of God to take it market. It has to be cheap enough that Grandma can buy it, and it has to be simple enough that it can be built by 3 guys in a shack in Palo Alto.

Often this means taking stuff that exists already and chopping off the most expensive features, even if they are the best features, to make it cheap enough for Grandma. Whole books have been published on this; lookup "The Innovator's Dilemma".

This is a completely different goal from the goals of research, which has to be new to be published. Taking an old idea, even which was impractical to build/deploy, and productizing it, is a very hard sell to the professors and very difficult to get published papers out of.

(Some academics just do not care about practicalities, no matter how hard one tries to persuade them.)

Both these situations are also completely different from the military, who care about maximum effectiveness even if it means throwing money at problems and even if it means redeploying the very oldest ideas. If a ceramic capacitor works, instead of a funky DSP algorithm, they'll use the ceramic capacitor. If it somehow proves necessary to defend against a nuclear attack, they'll switch the ceramic capacitor for a solid gold ingot in a heartbeat.

The incentives and goals are not aligned.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#252
I wrote the following email to PG some time ago, which I hope have helped inform the present essay.

----------------------------------------------------

1.

You know, I came across:

" I think they're not so much dense as bitter. There's a subset of HN readers who regard startups as a whole as a sort of con game, and are angry that the participants get so much attention. There may not be that many of them, but their anger makes them disproportionately active as commenters and voters. "

I want to tell you that I don't like the fact that you and ycombinator only look at immediate sales vehicles and hardly any big ideas, like Google or Skype. Mine is a Big Idea - it's not a sales vehicle. You almost have negative things to say about $100B market aspirations. And your results speak for themselves - smaller companies with no big vision.

That's what I don't like.

----------------------------------------------------

2. this was after leaving him this comment which I hope he also saw

(PG here on HN): Financially, as if you were an investor. They're the people whose job it is to evaluate startups' prospects, and they care above all about two things: the founders and the market. The founders should be relentlessly effective, and the market should ideally be of a size that can only be obtained by riding on trends beyond the startup's control (but visible to few besides the founders, or the market would already be full). Joining the young Microsoft, for example was a bet on Bill Gates and microcomputers, both of which turned out to be very good bets.

As a hacker you may be able to judge market bets as well as or better than many investors. E.g. I think HN readers knew Dropbox was onto something before most investors did. So if you go wrong it will be in judging founders. For many hackers, especially the unwordly sort, it's hard to distinguish true Bill Gateses from mere good talkers.

I wish I could offer some advice about distinguishing, but that would take a whole essay. The best simple hack I can think of is completely self-serving, but I'll offer it anyway: piggback on our filter. YC specializes in distinguishing between genuine Gateses and good talkers. We're occasionally fooled, but far less often than a typical hacker looking for a job would be.

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1 point by its_so_on 0 minutes ago | link | edit | delete

where's your Microsoft?

My only problem with your filter is that it filters out companies that genuinely have a plan to grow to revenues in the billions or tens of billions annually. This doesn't happen by chance alone, but through planning and commitment. That very commitment is a red flag for you and reason enough for you to say "no".

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3.

To drive the point home: it's almost impossible to adjust to investors like YC with a big idea. You can't sell what you have, however cheaply - which I think is ridiculous.

If you are holding a winning lottery ticket that is worth $20 billion and you need $500,000 to go and cash it, you would think that selling 7% of your company for the 500k amount is a no-brainer. Yeah, it's expensive, but so is taxes. You can live with 93% of the $20Billion. Expensive for you, not for the investor.

The ticket in this example is worth $1,400,000,000 (7% of the $20b) minus a bit of net-present-value calculation, and you are selling it for $500,000. This means the built-in return is 2800x or 280000%. Selling this share is very expensive for you, the owner of the company/holder of the winning ticket.

But would an investor like YC jump on this? No. An investor like YC will go ahead and take the step of applying a "0.000..% chance of successfully cashing" to the winning lottery ticket you hold. (If you are honest with them about what you will do and what you need to do it.)

NOT 1%, leaving an expected 28x or 2800% return (2800x built-in * 1%) from the 2800x or even 0.1% which would leave a 2.8x or 280% expected return (2800x * 0.1%) out of the built-in 2800x. But, exactly 0.000..% with unlimited precision. And then, obviously, in their estimation "it doesn't make sense to invest." (Even though in reality they have a built in 2800x return from the terms you are offering them. A cool 1.4 billion dollars basically for free.)

Then they will go ahead and say "no".

What is interesting is that you can show that the "0.00..%" they go ahead and apply to you really does have unlimited significant figures. If you were to hypotehtically need only $50,000 instead of $500,000 in this round you have to lie if you want their money.* The above calculation still produces a "no".

Yet another way to show significant figures in the 0.000%: if your winning ticket has 200b written on it (mine doesn't, mine has 20b written on it) it does not increase your chances of funding or interest in it. The 0.0000 that YC and several other "investors" apply really has that many sig figs.

So now you understand why I would never like to be associated with an outfit like YC. If I need money to cash my check, why would I ever want to associate with someone whose only M.O. implies they will go and apply a 0.000000000000% (infinite zeros) factor to it? I don't need that kind of tarnish. Where is YC's "Google"? Nowhere. They wouldn't touch a $200B or even $20B seed-stage company with a 200-foot pole.

* how can you build a $50b company from $50,000? Maybe you're an Indian-American entrepreneur and an able CTO and single founder, and you can get nearly unlimited high-quality output for peanuts, while personally overseeing it, from your Indian network. Then $50,000 is easily as much as $800,000 in the hands of a non-tech MBA who must first of all find a CTO and then insists on expensive labor.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#253

I wrote the following email to PG some time ago, which I hope have helped inform the present essay. ---------------------------------------------------- 1. You know, I came across: " I think they're not so much dense as bitter. There's a subset of HN readers who regard startups as a whole as a sort of con game, and are angry that the participants get so much attention. There may not be that many of them, but their an…

Wait I don't understand, are we assuming that the lottery ticket has a 100% chance of being worth $20 billion? Are we ignoring the fact that there's a sizeable chance that it is worth $0?

Re: Black Swan Farming

#254
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that counter-intuitive, though? A sample of two "rock stars" doesn't seem to be enough to draw conclusions from it. For instance, whereas Airbnb can admittedly be seen as a questionable idea (but not outright bad), Dropbox (the idea, before implementation) sounds like a very good idea. Maybe not a $7b idea, but still very good. Of course, among the YC funded startups, there may be a lot of ideas that sou…

Frankly, I still don't understand why everyone's so excited about dropbox.

Because IT JUST WORKS. Dropbox is multiplatform, fast, almost zero-hassle to install and maintain and free (up to a size limit). What more could you ask?

I often work on my Macbook on the train, then when I get to the office I switch to a Win7 PC and continue working on those same files. There is zero hassle and I can hardly imagine a better solution. ()

As a bonus I get access to all my files from my smartphone and ipad. And with the ipad being such a pain in the ass to synchronize, you really need some kind of dropbox-like solution.

() - Maybe if you did all your work inside VMWare and had the state of the OS image automatically synced between computers that would be a nicer solution... Then you would not have to close your project files on computer #1 and reopen them on computer #2.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#255
post #12

The counter-intuitive nature of startup investing is a big part of what makes it so interesting to me. In most aspects of life, we are trained to avoid risk and only pursue "good ideas" (e.g. try to be a lawyer, not a rock star). With startups, I get to focus on things that are probably bad ideas, but possibly great ideas. It's not for everyone, but for those of us who love chasing dreams, it can be a great adventure…

You mentioning rock stars make me wonder if being a scout for a record label is similar. A band that's going to define a new genre or movement will sound nothing like anything currently popular, so it seems you have to identify the things that sound nothing like what's popular but that sound like what will be popular. The returns aren't as dominated by just a few big successes, though. Although I suppose one-hit wond…

Back in the deep, dark days of the internet, when Napster was new, I believe this was one of the arguments that Def Leppard used against file-sharing.

Namely, that record companies are like VC funds, and the massive cash they make from Def Leppard (or Lady Gaga or whoever) pays for the 1000's of other acts that they fund and then fail.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0) It's very nice to see you change your position. First, "you did nothing wrong". Then, after I pointed out that you did, indeed, do something wrong, turns out you did it because "you were attacked strongly". This is a common behavior in elementary school, and not an acceptable mode of conduct in adult age, especially from a technical Ph.D. 1) There are plenty of people on HN who don't bow down before VCs. See patio…

My first comment on this thread was down voted to -4 quickly. That post did nothing seriously wrong on the HN rules. Since only a few users are able to down vote, that down voting had to be heavily or entirely from HN mods. For more evidence, the down voting was well before any responding comments. That is chicken sh!t behavior from the mods. So I was attacked, and not for anything I did wrong. Then I responded and d…

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Re: Black Swan Farming

#257
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think profit per year per founder is a good definition of "lifestyle business", a better definition would be "can you make money while you're sleeping/on holiday?". If you're a consultant, then you don't make money while on holiday. I don't even think you need €1,000,000 per annum to count as success, I'd set the bar at €100,000. I'd be quite happy to make that amount per year in my sleep.

"a million dollars a year for you" was a limit given in mixmax's comment, and Marc also use that. So I'm just curious if Patrick was really meaning that he can without pausing name 50 non-VC backed lifestyle product companies that are making $1M in salaries and profits for their founders, or that he meant that he can name 50 companies that are generally well-off, and are making e.g. a few thousand dollars per year fo…

Any multi-person consultancy in our industry can easily be doing $1MM.

Most companies that build and ship product can easily consult, so, any of those companies that continue to ship product for multiple years should cause you to ask how much more than $1MM they must be making.

"Salaries and profits" is an awfully weird metric, since salary is the #1 cost factor both for consultancies and product companies. Maybe you should just say "revenue".

I respectfully suggest that your radar is off here. No, you don't need to be in "fishy types of businesses" to break $1MM.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#258
Excellent article, but this little section misses the mark slightly.

YC would be a pretty lonely place if we only had one company per batch. And yet it's true.

The point is that not only would it be lonely, it would also be impossible to pick that one perfect company per batch. (Well, not impossible, but vanishingly unlikely.)

And I think pg understands this well, as shown by the rest of the article - a person or investment team can't possibly pick that 1000-bagger without it being a complete lottery. So you invest in a large number, knowing that most of them won't do too much, a few will tank, and one in a hundred will be a grand slam that pays for all the others.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#259
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but something I've been chewing on lately: what's it like to have your every written (or spoken!) word analyzed by a bunch of people? Esp. people that you end up having some form of contact with. It seems like it would be difficult to just have a public conversation about a topic. Do you think about that much when you write?

It's pretty grim. I think that's one of the reasons I write fewer essays now. After I wrote this one, I had to go back and armor it by pre-empting anything I could imagine anyone willfully misunderstanding to use as a weapon in comment threads. The whole of footnote 1 is such armor for example. I essentially anticipated all the "No, what I said was" type comments I'd have had to make on HN and just included them in t…

When I saw this comment (before reading the essay) I was ready to decry this armoring. But now, having read the essay, I think it's a good thing. This essay flows nicely and is clear. Footnote 1 is a good clarification, especially if someone hadn't read your other essays.

I think at least half of the misunderstandings that arise in HN comment threads are honest misunderstandings.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#260
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I still don't understand why everyone's so excited about dropbox.

For me, Dropbox beautifully solves four hard problems: 1. Keeping all my documents in sync between several computers, so that I can pick up work on any one of them at any time 2. Off-site incremental backup 3. Sharing and working on a set of project files with non-technically-minded collaborators 4. Sending and receiving large files Moreover, it just sits there quietly solving problems 1 - 3 day-in, day-out, and I ne…

I have to think about it all the time. It flatly fails to serve my gaming club. We have a Gb of card images for our card games. Almost every club member cannot share these files, since they run out of space.

Think about it. Sharing files between 25 club members, using our own bandwidth, our own disk space. And Dropbox thinks we should pay them big bucks for this. For what? Storing our files on their server, insecurely? If they had an option to stop doing that, I would select it.

SO no, it doesn't solve any hard problems for us.

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