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Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

josefprusa.com

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Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#251

Post by ohdeargodno »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #212
kennywinker wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great! Here is a few million go make AI. So how is this different from the US? It’s VC’s making the choices not the gov - seems little different. Maybe scale? > They're not unfamiliar with burning tens of billions to get a few hundred million of value. The chinese economy seems like proof this is a valid strategy that pays off in aggregate. Yet when gov here attempts any kind of economic development policy it seems…

VC's gauge what the market wants, the Chinese government is one person who decides what he wants. One of these is grossly inefficient compared to the other, despite the final outcome looking similar from some angles.

"Capitalism good, but state capitalism bad".

Not only are US VCs dumping billions in shitty Bluetooth connected dog collars and other kinds of crap, apparently according to you because that's "what the market wants", it's also an incredibly stupid reading of how the Chinese government works.

They target specific industries that are important, according to them, like solar panels, batteries, cars, etc. They then dump billions into a bunch of companies, and see which ones come out alive and on top.

As it stands, it's been pretty accurate for many things, and has made them market leaders on many, many things. But sure, jerk off the VC model, after all YC thinks the market wants... AIs and ERPs. Woo.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#252

Post by zevon »

thatnerdyguy wrote: post #224
sarchertech wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not better in every way. For long term reliability and ability to repair and upgrade, Prusa is far superior.

If your hobby is 3d printERS sure (and more power to you), but for many people (me included) the hobby is 3d printING

The point is not that Prusas need constant repair. The point is that they are reliable workhorses and repairable and usually also long-term-upgradeable.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#253

Post by ZooCow »

This post unfortunately isn’t drawing the necessary distinctions between utility models, published applications, and issued patents. And it isn’t focusing on the claims. Patent law is complicated and it is easy to draw the wrong inferences.

You can follow the prosecution of the US application here: https://patentcenter.uspto.gov/applications/18608960

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#254

Post by fidotron »

nickpinkston wrote: post #197

Having spent my whole career in the manufacturing tech world after starting in the maker world (I started HackPgh), I love Open Hardware, but find it not a great fit beyond boards (Arduino, RPi, etc.). I think the core issue is one of how expensive / complex the iteration cycle is, with even sophisticated circuit boards being possible to make on a hobbyist budget, but sophisticated 3D printers and other complex machi…

> Add to this that even the extremely well funded hardware startups: MakerBot, FormLabs, DesktopMetal, OnShape, etc. have all either totally failed to create better tech at all, or have been quickly commodified without a major impact to the hardware development process.

They simply succumb to the tendency to rest on their laurels the moment they start making money, and then especially stop investing in software, which is where Bambu have their edge, as many of their improvements are software related.

i.e. if you spend upfront in software you can create an improved experience with the same parts for every subsequent unit. The Chinese have actually internalized this lesson, while in the west we have forgotten it.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#255

Post by simplyluke »

therouwboat wrote: post #174
conorbergin wrote: post #44

If you are a hobbyist or small business in desktop manufacturing you are basically forced to buy Chinese products. I have never owned a Prusa, but I have owned several Creality and Bambu Labs printers, because I could get the same utility at half the cost. The same goes for soldering irons, linear actuators, oscillscopes, etc. I still buy European hand tools (Knipex, Wera, etc) because I know they won't break in a ye…

I have Creality Ender3 v3 and Prusa mk4s and they are not the same, you can get them to produce same quality, but ender requires more tinkering and I have had more failed prints. Creality software is awful, you get no firmware updates for a year and then you get 4 on same day, like do they even test before release? Slicer is also buggy and default settings seem to be max everything, so its loud and fast and has print…

Bambu is who's winning this space and largely took 3d printing from a hobby for its own sake to "it's another tool in your shop".

My bambu was FAR cheaper than a comparable prusa, and I took it out of the box, put filament in it, and it started producing effectively perfect prints immediately.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#256

Post by LordDragonfang »

lettergram wrote: post #249
amluto wrote: post #234

If the US cared about remaining competitive with China, the government would attack this . Example approaches: a) Smallish hammer: disallow priority based on Chinese patents. b) Big hammer: if anyone wants to manufacture anything in the US and sell to the US market, give an automatic patent workaround. For example, there could be compulsory licensing, at enforced and genuinely reasonable prices, for all patents, fore…

I run a company in this space... First, China patents ~5-10x more than the US does currently on a given month. Further, China has made it required for companies to patent. The US definitely could not respect the Chinese patents, or they could treat Chinese patent's differently. IMO there's a ~1% chance of that happening. Patent law is pretty well defined, there are a multitude of treaties and if the US wants their pa…

> if the US wants their patents to be respected, they have to respect the worlds.

The Chinese market is notorious for not respecting patents, though, so clearly that isn't working.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#257

Post by entropicdrifter »

taeric wrote: post #235
jandrese wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that before the Patent system the solution was secretive guilds that jealously (sometimes lethally) guarded their secrets to avoid competition. This was obviously terrible since it greatly slowed down innovation. I'm not sure what the correct solution is to this problem. We want to avoid anything that causes a return of the guild system, but at the same time we don't want small inventors steamrolled by l…

I mean, with limiting the allowed use of force to guard secrets, we are probably nowhere near as at risk for the worst of the past? As you said, the competition to guard secrets could be quite severe, and they were not exactly good at knowing actual leaks of their secrets versus someone else independently arriving at them. That is, I think having the assumption of independent discovery would go a long way to preventi…

Ah yes, if only murder had been illegal back then! Yes, making murder illegal must have been what was missing.

Sorry, but your argument has a bit of a silly premise.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#258

Post by xdennis »

reactordev wrote: post #48
simpaticoder wrote: post #11

The real story here is that IP ownership is capital-intensive when it shouldn't be. Open-source and community-led IP contributions are grossly under-protected because of this, and those with capital become unopposed predators. This is a special-case of the more general observation that the justice system is capital-intensive when it shouldn't be. The answer is something you very rarely hear: the US (especially) needs…

While I don't entirely disagree with you. You have to understand why the courts exist at all. To govern working class citizens. Laws are written by the powerful and wealthy - always has been - to control the working class (everyone else). You're freedom is an illusion. A social contract agreed upon by you following certain rules. Those rules, written by the wealthy, don't apply to the wealthy. In a just society they…

> You have to understand why the courts exist at all. To govern working class citizens. Laws are written by the powerful and wealthy - always has been - to control the working class (everyone else).

It's amazing that after so many failures people are still preaching communism.

You'd have a leg to stand on if you could produce a single communist society which worked for the working class instead of the communist elites.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#259

Post by ramshanker »

amluto wrote: post #234

If the US cared about remaining competitive with China, the government would attack this . Example approaches: a) Smallish hammer: disallow priority based on Chinese patents. b) Big hammer: if anyone wants to manufacture anything in the US and sell to the US market, give an automatic patent workaround. For example, there could be compulsory licensing, at enforced and genuinely reasonable prices, for all patents, fore…

Requiring an annual patent maintenance tax proportional to pre-declared fair licensing fee will ensure fairness for everyone. Including foreign patents. So whichever jurisdiction, patent holders want to retain the rights, can pay the tax annually. We can even come up with a public domain threshold as well. If 1000 people / company paid your pre-declared licensing fee, it becomes public domain. And no more per device license fee. 1 Patent, 1 Fee, 1 Annual Tax.

Same for copyrights.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#260

Post by ohdeargodno »

zevon wrote: post #248
ohdeargodno wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, but that's not why people buy things. I don't buy a bike for the pleasure of getting to repair it when I inevitably eat shit on a gravel road. While you're busy ordering parts for your Prusa and taking it apart, people just buy another A1 or P1P for basically nothing. While you're spending 5 hours trying to stabilise your printing plate and ensuring your nozzle isn't vomiting out super melted , the bambulabs go…

You don't care how expensive and complicated it is to repair and maintain your mountain bike (especially if you plan to eat gravel a lot)? And your take on machines is that you better throw away a bunch of working 3D printers and replace them instead of upgrading the old ones and adding new ones as needed? Hope you have a lot of money to burn in your personal and business life. ;)

Another user made the point: maybe you care about 3D printERS. The vast majority of people care about the printed end result, and buying more printers in the case of massive failure (which is already rare) makes more sense. If you're 3D printing for fun at home, a Bambu will basically never break.

Spending 3 days tracking down the parts for a Prusa, taking it apart, fixing it, realising some settings have gone to shit, fixing it? I hope you have a lot of time to burn in your personal and business life :)

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