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I used to know how to write in Japanese

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251–260 of 277 posts

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One interesting thing I learned while researching this comment was that a big reason Hanja disappeared was because Koreans gained literacy during the typewriting era, but before computer auto-suggested keyboards, and it was just substantially easier to make and use a letter-based typewriter. If you look in the right places, you can find people complaining about how it's impossible to dynamically render hangul block…

> If that's true, I don't see how hangul could have had any typewriter-based advantage over hanja. From the typewriter's perspective, there's no difference. There are mechanical hangeul typewriters that, while more complicated than Latin or katakana typewriters, are still completely usable for normal writing. The reason hangeul fonts are hard is that a hangeul syllable occupies a standard-sized block, and in eg. care…

> For example, in 해 he the ㅎ andㅐ letters are both the same size. When you write 핸 hen, see how the h especially becomes smaller? In typewritten hangeul, that first consonant is always that small, so you can use only one size of initial h and so on.

I see the opposite. As those characters render in whatever font my browser picked, the ㅎ in 해 occupies much less vertical space than the ㅐ does.

In the 핸, it still occupies less vertical space, but the difference is smaller. It's about as tall as the left-hand bar of the ㅐ instead of being significantly less tall than that.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is a problem exactly equal to the other one. No typewriter can produce 98,000 different characters. And no typewriter can produce 11,000 different characters. With zero difference between hangul and hanja, how can the typewriter favor one over the other?

There were Chinese typewriters but they were very large and a lot more annoying to use. Japan also used typewriting. They just look a lot different, with a giant cylinder of tiny keys to facilitate thousands of characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ-SHOsbH4Y Hangul ones were a lot smaller. I misspoke earlier; they had letter-based keyboards and mostly just did compromises on the shape of the syllabic blocks;…

Thanks!

For reference, I talked about a typewriter code before, but I suspect that I was thinking of the telegraph code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_telegraph_code

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#253
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then when traveling, people could at a basic level read the signs and menus, and communicate at a basic level by writing, without having to know anything about the language Well, you have to be careful; something that actually happened to me was recognizing that the first element of 牛蛙 meant "cow", without recognizing that the second part made it " bull frog". > We could do the same thing in English as in Japan…

>>> he is 考慮ed as the 正当 財産 of some 一 or 他 of their 娘s. > This doesn't appear to be a problem, but I still felt the need to call out what looks like the use of an exclusively masculine pronoun (in modern Chinese) to refer to "daughters". IIRC, in Japanese, 他 is sometimes used for "hoka", which means "other"; as in, "Do you have this item of clothing in other (他) sizes?" The original text says, "some one or other of t…

> I'm sure I've run into other Chinese characters that are pronounced differently depending on whether they're in a verb or an adjective.

The Japanese writing situation is much, much worse than that. Kanji get all kinds of different pronunciations on the theory that the semantics are the same. So the standard spelling of musume ["daughter"; "girl"] is 娘, but it might also be spelled 女. This gives you an alternative to the standard independent reading of 女, which is onna ["woman"]. All characters will also be pronounced differently when they represent Chinese loanwords than when they represent native words.

> And yet, in English, "made a cake" and "made no reply" have exactly the same verb. Again, one can imagine it going both ways

I agree with that.

> The real limitation here is that there's no way ready-made to indicate the "make" -> "made" transition, as you can with "makes" ("作s" ) and "making" ("作ing").

I don't agree with that; you'd do the same thing you do with every other preterite verb and write 作ed. You wouldn't pronounce that maked, but that's not a problem; we're still assuming that everybody knows English.

> IIRC, in Japanese, 他 is sometimes used for "hoka", which means "other"; as in, "Do you have this item of clothing in other (他) sizes?" The original text says, "some one or other of their daughters"

Yes, I determined something similar by looking the character up in a Japanese dictionary. I don't have the skills to determine what kinds of uses are and aren't natural, so I just decided that I couldn't label the usage wrong, but it still stood out as funny for other reasons. I was able to correctly read the English without referencing the original text.

I'm not sure what a "moderate amount of Mandarin" means; if it's on the lower end, you might be interested to know that the "other" sense does survive in Mandarin, in the words 其他 ["other"; extremely common] and 他人 ["other people"; not so common]. 他 by itself is going to be overwhelmed by the far more common use as a pronoun, I would guess.

> My expectation, which matches my (very small) experience, is that Japanese are trying to write Japanese; and that therefore they have Japanese words in mind that they're trying to represent with Chinese characters.

While I do agree that the situation could shake out in several ways, I don't think this is a total defense of the idea that "the same word" is going to be spelled the same way by people who don't know Chinese. I wouldn't expect, for example, that fire [flame] and fire [eliminate from a job] would get the same character spelling.

> One could imagine using "作" in both cases; or one could imagine using two different characters for two different shades of meaning, just as in Chinese there's 他, 她, 它, and 祂

By my understanding, 祂 is not a part of ordinary mainland usage. But this is a good example, in that there is no distinction between the words in the language, and Chinese people aren't able to make the distinction when learning a foreign language even though they do make it in writing their own. (By contrast, Spanish speakers don't have problems choosing between the English words he and she.)

You might also be interested to know that the character 做, pronounced identically to 作 and meaning the same thing, is in fact derived from 作. It (and not 作) is now the ordinary character used for the sense of making or doing. 作 is best known to me as part of the word 作者 "author". This is a pure spelling distinction that arose by some natural process within Mandarin.

> or perhaps 的 and 得 (which I'm not sure people would naturally consider different words if they were only exposed to the spoken word).

I can answer that; they don't. At least they don't for the 得 that introduces manner or result clauses; they might or might not think of the possibility infix seen in 听得了 "able to listen" as different.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's true, I don't see how hangul could have had any typewriter-based advantage over hanja. From the typewriter's perspective, there's no difference. There are mechanical hangeul typewriters that, while more complicated than Latin or katakana typewriters, are still completely usable for normal writing. The reason hangeul fonts are hard is that a hangeul syllable occupies a standard-sized block, and in eg. care…

> For example, in 해 he the ㅎ andㅐ letters are both the same size. When you write 핸 hen, see how the h especially becomes smaller? In typewritten hangeul, that first consonant is always that small, so you can use only one size of initial h and so on. I see the opposite. As those characters render in whatever font my browser picked, the ㅎ in 해 occupies much less vertical space than the ㅐ does. In the 핸, it still occupi…

Okay. The point is, the typewriter writes 핸-style ㅎ always. Even if it could be a bit taller, but tends to leave the vowel lines bigger.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alphabet is such an underrated invention. It's probably higher in significance compared to the invention of wheel. It's the original "bicycle of the mind". For example, Korea pivoting from Chinese characters to its own alphabet or Hangul is very well documented including the positive effects it has in the much improved Korean literacy and civilization after the conversion. Fun facts anyone can learn Hangul alphabet i…

Scripts being the main driver of literacy is a pet peeve of mine. It's not the script, it's the schooling system. The high rates of literacy in modern states are just a result of the school system - Japan has a high literacy rate, for example, and their writing system is either the worst in the world or close to it. That said, the characters are a whole boatload of unnecessary extra effort, and as a student of the tw…

>their writing system is either the worst in the world or close to it

Yes, it's probably the worst since even Microsoft until now still struggle to provide proper search solution for Japanese names in their Windows OS due to their multitude of writing systems.

By sheer wills of course you can make everything hard feasible but that does not means it's efficient and effective. I consider Japanese as a unique country with extraordinary people that can collectively overcome adversity, that's include a non intuitive and difficult writing systems.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#256

This thread is reminding me that I desperately want a way to way to have different font sizes for different languages. I like my English text small, but kanji/Chinese characters are obviously more visually dense. So I default to 10/12 point for latin alphabet but I need somewhere between 20-25 point to read Japanese comfortably. Where the two are mixed, like in this thread or on social media (where maybe half my feed…

agree this would make a nice accessibility setting in browsers. or maybe there exists a browser extension?

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#258
post #30

A system fails when its natives don't know how to use it. So time to sunset the system, surely? I don't know why so many countries are so obstinately hanging onto something so difficult. Do it like Korea if you don't want to go the Vietnamese way.

That reads as a foreigner suggesting to abandon many thousands years long history and culture just because the characters are too difficult for him. It doesn't even make sense because today we have computers and ML. If you want to write something, you just type the spelling, and the program automatically converts it into proper characters. And if you don't understand the character, AI can translate it for you. I am s…

I gave you an example: they can't write it.

I also gave you two examples of cultures who already did it: Koreans did it autonomously, the Vietnamese did it during occupation. Both are successful today.

But yes "preserve history" at the expensive of daily life. I'm sure you speak Latin too, plenty of history lost there.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#259
post #30

A system fails when its natives don't know how to use it. So time to sunset the system, surely? I don't know why so many countries are so obstinately hanging onto something so difficult. Do it like Korea if you don't want to go the Vietnamese way.

long reply here bc this is a Special Interest of mine. I'm going to put aside the "so difficult" thing here mostly, because the perceived difficulty is partly modern teaching practices not updating beyond "just write the kanji 100000 times ok" (this is a failure of people, not the writing system), and people actively choosing to not write anything at all, which isn't necessarily a problem because nowadays recognition…

> many people don't know how to spell many english words anymore.

Yes but that's not really comparable.

You can misspell "litrally" but how close can you get if you can't remember any stroke of the glyph? There's an inherent advantage in spelling words closely to how they sound.

I'm not saying English is great at this either, but I can still write "Kernel Sanders" and you know what it means, without using a whole other writing system as fallback (pinyin)

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is written using an alphabet. Alphabets are by and large phonetic so you do not need to remember how to pronounce every word, you learn to read the alphabet and specific spelling (e.g. 'th' in English) and you are mostly done. Chinese is written using ideograms ('kanji' in Japanese), which convey a meaning but not a pronounciation. So when you encounter a new character you cannot pronounce it.

> Chinese is written using ideograms ('kanji' in Japanese), which convey a meaning but not a pronounciation. So when you encounter a new character you cannot pronounce it. This isn't quite true - about 80% of Chinese characters are so-called phonosemantic compounds, where people originally started using the character for one thing for another thing whose word sounded similar (say, emoji for "can", as in able to) and…

This is being pedantic.

You cannot guess the pronunciation of a character from the way it is written. At most the "phonosemantic compound" might provide a clue to possibly reduce the space of possibilities.

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