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Local-first software (2019)

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Re: Local-first software (2019)

#251

Post by klabb3 »

GMoromisato wrote: post #89
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) with a technical trade-off (avoid centralized architecture). Whenever it's possible to solve a business problem or political problem with a technical solution, that's usually a strong approach, because those problems are caused by an adversarial entity and the technical solution is to eliminate the adversarial entity's ability to defect. Enc…

I 100% agree, actually. If there were a technical solution, then that's usually a better approach. For something like data portability--being able to take my data to a different provider--that probably requires a technical solution. But other problems, like enshittification, can't be solved technically. How do you technically prevent a cloud vendor from changing their pricing? And you're right that the solution space…

> How do you technically prevent a cloud vendor from changing their pricing?

Through regulating markets to ensure fierce competition - including things like portability, standard APIs, banning egress fees and similar lock in techniques, breaking up infrastructure (DCs and networking) from service providers. In cloud we have 3 vertically integrated mega oligopolies. That’s not a healthy market.

> data portability […] probably requires a technical solution

Yes, formats and APIs are needed for technical reasons, but it already exists (or fairly trivial to implement) and is not provided – sometimes actively obstructed – for business reasons. Imo interop is predominantly bottlenecked by social/business concerns.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#252

Post by ibizaman »

pastaheld wrote: post #230
ibizaman wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess as to why most apps are now a web UI on top of a DB is because it’s easy to “install”. SelfHostBlocks is admittedly geared towards a central server serving web apps. Or at least apps with a desktop or mobile component but geared towards synching to a central server. Feel free to give it a try though, I’d love that! Also feel free to join the matrix channel UF you have any questions or just to get some update…

> My guess as to why most apps are now a web UI on top of a DB is because it’s easy to “install”. That plus web dev is trendy and everybody is learning it. I wouldn't know how to code a proper desktop app right now, I've not done it in years. I don't want to criticize that or the centralization aspect – there will still be ways to put these centralized things on a PC for example.

Yes I agree I wouldn’t know how to write a desktop app either.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#253

Post by jen20 »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #152
maxhille wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you plan to do the syncing without some sort of cloud infrastructure?

There are a lot of valid answers to this! One is to use your platform's provided one, like OneDrive or iCloud. Another is to integrate with some other sync platform. Dropbox is a popular target for this. Peer-to-peer is another, although that obviously also come with limitations. Finally, bring-your-own-sync is a popular choice amongst open-source apps, where you provide a self-hostable sync server.

Note that this thread is full of people claiming that using SQLite with iCloud sync is evidence of some conspiracy theory or other!

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#254

Post by 0x445442 »

danjl wrote: post #64
tikhonj wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember seeing somebody summarize this as "SaaS is a pricing model" or "SaaS is financialization" and it totally rings true. Compared to normal software pricing, a subscription gives you predictable recurring revenue and a natural sort of price discrimination (people who use your system more, pay more). It's also a psychological thing: folks got anchored on really low up-front prices for software, so paying $2000…

Correct. SaaS is a business model, not a technical concept. But the real problem is that there is no equivalent business model for selling local first software. Traditional desktop apps were single purchase items. Local first is not because you just navigate to a website in your browser and blammo you get the software. What we need is a way to make money off of local first software.

This is the canonical example I believe. The product is ~35 years old.

https://www.gpsoft.com.au/

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#255

Post by fud101 »

bravesoul2 wrote: post #248
fud101 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me more. Lol. I just did a 10k run, I tracked it with my watch but tell me how any of that matters to anyone except me (and it doesn't even matter to me what my HR was over that run - though i did use a HRM but mainly to keep myself from over-exertion). I really don't understand what fitness apps are supposed to do, they're possibly the most useless thing ever invented. I wrote my own app in Clojure over a decad…

Funny. I keep a gym record in a local note on the phone. Not for the data. For the act of recording it. Never look back. Only useful thing from Garmin app has been comparing heart rates to a year ago.

Act of recording is right. Pen and paper is efficient and you get a safe way to archive it once you fill the book up, it can go into storage or the bin. It's fool proof, doesn't have bugs or network timeouts, costs nothing and will give all the benefits of journaling without the downsides of digital distractions. I hate how every tech enthusiast thinks their addiction to technology is of benefit to humanity at large.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#256

Post by owebmaster »

bilsbie wrote: post #250
owebmaster wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Local-first apps should not need hosting.

I mean if local first isn’t possible. I’m more comfortable with web based development plus don’t you need to apply for all kinds of certificates to be “allowed” to run on windows and Mac these days?

> don’t you need to apply for all kinds of certificates to be “allowed” to run on windows and Mac these days?

Not for a PWA.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#257

Post by crossroadsguy »

agos wrote: post #233
crossroadsguy wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the reason I have always refused to use Bear note taking app irrespective of how good and snappy that app is. Because they keep their notes in a SQLite db now and even though that file can be backed up and handled locally my notes are not easily accessible to me. I can't easily edit my notes in other editors (which I often like to do on my mac), I can't version controlled backup and sync those files the way I…

I didn’t know they did this change which means it’s time to think about migrating away from bear. Which is a pity because the software itself is rock solid

Yes, I feel the same. A rock solid app dismantled by just one developer choice. Still I won't diss the devs because it's their choice but "a text note" is the last thing I would want "locked" in a sqlite db and bear is a "plain text note taking app" really. So just sad.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#258

Post by airstrike »

Timwi wrote: post #227
danjl wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. SaaS is a business model, not a technical concept. But the real problem is that there is no equivalent business model for selling local first software. Traditional desktop apps were single purchase items. Local first is not because you just navigate to a website in your browser and blammo you get the software. What we need is a way to make money off of local first software.

> What we need is a way to make money off of local first software. No, what we need is a way for people to not starve so that they don't have to make money at all and can focus instead on their passion project(s). Cough UBI cough

Just need to find a lamp with a genie inside first.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#259

Post by crossroadsguy »

canadiantim wrote: post #246
crossroadsguy wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the reason I have always refused to use Bear note taking app irrespective of how good and snappy that app is. Because they keep their notes in a SQLite db now and even though that file can be backed up and handled locally my notes are not easily accessible to me. I can't easily edit my notes in other editors (which I often like to do on my mac), I can't version controlled backup and sync those files the way I…

Sqlite is still local first. Couldn’t they just also provide you with notes via obsidian-like file folder structure while using sqlite for in-app performance?

That was exactly my thought. But no I guess they won't. Because they had good old plain text files but they changed to sqlite db and apparently the reason they gave is sync related challenges. Since it's not a FOSS app I don't know the challenges and I feel all other text based notes/editor apps that work on plain text files on disk must be doing something right/different. I don't know.

And as for sqlite being local first - it's not the same. It's the nature of the data a plain text note taking app deals with that neuters that very idea of those plain text notes by storing in a local sqlite db.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#260

Post by eliasson »

fud101 wrote: post #255
bravesoul2 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I keep a gym record in a local note on the phone. Not for the data. For the act of recording it. Never look back. Only useful thing from Garmin app has been comparing heart rates to a year ago.

Act of recording is right. Pen and paper is efficient and you get a safe way to archive it once you fill the book up, it can go into storage or the bin. It's fool proof, doesn't have bugs or network timeouts, costs nothing and will give all the benefits of journaling without the downsides of digital distractions. I hate how every tech enthusiast thinks their addiction to technology is of benefit to humanity at large.

I used to log my weight lifting in an app but I found it really distracting and time consuming so I gave up. For the last few weeks I have been bringing a small notebook and doing my logging by pen and paper instead. I find it much more relaxing and I only use it to check what weights I used last time, so I don't really miss anything.

Pen and paper is severely underrated today.

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