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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

proton.me

251–260 of 665 posts

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#251

There is a lot I hate about building apps and releasing them on the App Store, and I'd be happy for there to be alternatives. But that said, I don't understand how its a monopoly. There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. There are other devices and means for software delivery out there. What makes their control of their own ecosystem monopolistic? As someone who has paid the apple tax for digital sale…

> But that said, I don't understand how its a monopoly.

Because you've redefined the market.

Which part of this article quote don't you understand?

> but Apple’s monopoly over iOS app distribution means

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#252
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case I hope you have sympathy when I state that I dislike when Apple charges 30% on transactions (but also apps), because this cost is also passed to the consumer: me. And I 100% guarantee that the piece of this 30% pie is way bigger than the effort it would require them to divert their development like you're suggesting. EDIT: Oh, and I also bet their lawyer bill for fighting this is bigger than that too. :)

Not really, you can chose to purchase other devices with more favourable payment agreements. It's about having that choice, versus not having the ability to purchase a device with a higher level of security.

I dont think anyone is arguing you shouldn't be allowed to pay 1000% markups on payment processing to Apple if you'd like to.

But making the argument that Apple is the only company to solve secure payments on the internet is silly.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#253

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

>> shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it?

Apple can. They can retain ownership of "their" devices. Instead of selling electronics, they can rent iPhones and iPads to users and thereby retain all control over how/when/if they are used. But good luck pitching that to consumers.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#254

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

> Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built?

I think general purpose computing devices should be open.

This is a moralistic argument, putting legal and business reasons to the side.

Go ahead and lock down specific purpose computing devices, like ATMs, fridge, mouse firmware.

The practice of setting up fiefdoms to become the landlord is an abhorrent practice.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use a program on a desktop computer to do what exactly?

To communicate with friends and family.

"I don't understand why people complain about that AT&T telephone company monopoly, when they could just write each other letters. When did people forget how to do that?"

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#256
post #243

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

> If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? Once a company becomes massive enough and displays properties of a monopoly, the rules of free commerce change (that being said, I agree that Apple largely provides users with a high-q…

If a company sells me a hardware and software package, that hardware and software is no longer the property of that company once I have exchanged my money for it.

That’s really the crux of the issue. If I must abide by arbitrary rules to use the package at its full functionality, then I didn’t gain ownership of it, did I?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#257
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so then i should be able to use any ink in my printer then...

I routinely buy printer toner and ink from companies that are not my printer's manufacturer. Where did you get the idea that it isn't possible to do so?

https://gizmodo.com/hp-printers-drm-update-block-third-party...

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

i think there are a lot of folks who would be willing to have a 27% discount (allow for ~3% card processing fee) and forego those features. if apple was saying you had to support their payment processor alongside others (so you could opt into paying +27% and getting easy cancellations), that would be one thing, but they don't allow you to have any other options available in the app, which i think is where the anticom…

> i think there are a lot of folks who would be willing to have a 27% discount (allow for ~3% card processing fee) and forego those features.

This makes sense because companies are used to making 70%, so obviously when given the choice to make 30% more overnight they will simply lower prices to avoid having to deal with all that extra revenue

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#259
post #256
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? Once a company becomes massive enough and displays properties of a monopoly, the rules of free commerce change (that being said, I agree that Apple largely provides users with a high-q…

If a company sells me a hardware and software package, that hardware and software is no longer the property of that company once I have exchanged my money for it. That’s really the crux of the issue. If I must abide by arbitrary rules to use the package at its full functionality, then I didn’t gain ownership of it, did I?

Can't Apple say in this case "I'm selling you this package under the condition that you accept you don't fully own it, and if you're not happy with that, don't buy it".

I don't like this hypothetical (or maybe real) argument from Apple, but can't answer it either.

Update; well, here's the answer to that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44427725

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's specifically anticompetitive for Apple to force app developers to go through Apple Payments (with a 30% fee to Apple) for all purchases, otherwise their app is disallowed from being sold on the App store. There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors - it's purely a strategy for increased revenue for Apple. In antitrust terms, it is a form of Vend…

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

I partly agree with you - but then you as a consumer should also be willing to expect variable pricing in such cases. If I as a developer offer a subscription for $10, and Apple demands $3 from it, while other payment providers only want $1 or $2 commissions, I should be able to tell you (the consumer) this information transparently and should be able to give you the options to choose between these different payment service providers. (Note that while you, as a paying customer, are an important part of the ecosystem, we developers too add value to the platform by developing apps that people like you want to use. That Apple seeks to exploit both you and me, should piss you off too. After all, one of us has to absorb the higher cost of Apple's services, and that often ends up being you, the consumer.)
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