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AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

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Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#252
post #244
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok - where do AIs put the information that they "seek" from the internet?

I suspect there's a harsher argument to be made regarding "autonomous". Pull the power cord and see if it does what a mammal would do, or if it rather resembles a chaotic water wheel.

I think it would turn off, no shocker there. I'm not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?

When I say autonomous I don't mean some high-falutin philosophical concept, I just mean it does stuff on it's own.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#253

[flagged]

It's just a typical crackpot paper like those math enthusiasts who self-claimed to prove Goldbach's conjecture or disprove special relativity. If it's not obvious enough, see the author's comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44350876 This post proves an interesting theory though: even the most random thing can get traction on HN as long as it mentions AI.

A lot of people see a title that is "subject I want to discuss" and jump to the comment section without even bothering to look at the link. There has been a lot AI hype, so counter-hypists are starved from content and just jumped on the first "confirmation bias title" they could find.

Thank you for the comment, "typical crackpot" feels a bit light considering how unhinged that is.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the soul?

So far, we have found no need for this hypothesis. (Aside from "explaining" why AI couldn't ever possibly be "really intelligent" for those who find this notion existentially offensive.)

"emergent superintelligent AI" is as much superstition as believing in imaterial souls. One company literally used the term "people spirits" to refer to how LLMs behave in their official communications.

It's a cult. Like many cults, it tries to latch on science to give itself legitimacy. In this case, mathematics. It has happened before many times.

You're trying to say that, because it's computers and stuff, it's science and therefore based on reason. Well, it's not. It's just a bunch of non sequitur.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#256
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this - Looking forward to reading the full paper. That said, the most obvious objection that comes to mind about the title is that … well, I feel that I’m generally intelligent, and therefore general intelligence of some sort is clearly not impossible. Can you give a short précis as to how you are distinguishing humans and the “A” in artificial?

Not the person asked, but in time honoured tradition I will venture forth that the key difference is billions of years of evolution. Innumerable blooms and culls. And a system that is vertically integrated to its core and self sustaining.

AI can be, and often are, trained by simulated evolution.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#257
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 10 years to train a human to do anything useful after creation.

A 4 year old can navigate the world better than any AI robot can

While I'm constantly disappointed by self driving cars, I do get the impression they're better at navigating the world than I was when I was four. And in public roads specifically, better than when I was fourteen.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#258
post #59

This sounds rather silly. Given the usual definition of AGI as being human like intelligence with some variation on how smart the humans are, and the fact that humans use a network of neurons that can largely be simulated by an artificial network of neurons, it's probably twaddle largely.

Can you justify the use of the following words in your comment: "largely" and "probably"? I don't see why they are needed at all (unless you're just trying to be polite).

It's just it's imprecise like with the brain can "largely be simulated by an artificial network of neurons" - there may well be more to it. For example a pint of beer interacts differently with those two.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#259
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? 1. Basically because physical laws obviously allow more than algorithmic cognition and problem solving. (And also: I am bound by thermodynamics as my mother in Law is, still i get disarranged by her mere presence while I always have to put laxatives in her wine to counter that) 2. human rationality is equally limited as algorithms. Neither an algorithm nor human logic can find itself a path from Newton to Einste…

> Basically because physical laws obviously allow more than algorithmic cognition and problem solving. This is not obvious at all. Unless you can prove that humans can compute functions beyond the Turing computable, there is no basis for thinking that humans embody and physics that "allow more than algorithmic cognition". Your claim here also goes against the physical interpretation of the Church-Turing thesis. Witho…

No problem here is you proof - although a bit long:

1. THEOREM: Let a semantic frame be defined as Ω = (Σ, R), where

Σ is a finite symbol set and R is a finite set of inference rules.

Let Ω′ = (Σ′, R′) be a candidate successor frame.

Define a frame jump as: Frame Jump Condition: Ω′ extends Ω if Σ′\Σ ≠ ∅ or R′\R ≠ ∅

Let P be a deterministic Turing machine (TM) operating entirely within Ω.

Then: Lemma 1 (Symbol Containment): For any output L(P) ⊆ Σ, P cannot emit any σ ∉ Σ.

(Whereas Σ = the set of all finite symbol strings in the frame; derivable outputs are formed from Σ under the inference rules R.)

Proof Sketch: P’s tape alphabet is fixed to Σ and symbols derived from Σ. By induction, no computation step can introduce a symbol not already in Σ. ∎

2. APPLICATION: Newton → Special Relativity

Let Σᴺ = { t, x, y, z, v, F, m, +, · } (Newtonian Frame) Let Σᴿ = Σᴺ ∪ { c, γ, η(·,·) } (SR Frame)

Let φ = “The speed of light is invariant in all inertial frames.” Let Tᴿ be the theory of special relativity. Let Pᴺ be a TM constrained to Σᴺ.

By Lemma 1, Pᴺ cannot emit any σ ∉ Σᴺ.

But φ ∈ Tᴿ requires σ ∈ Σᴿ \ Σᴺ

→ Therefore Pᴺ ⊬ φ → Tᴿ ⊈ L(Pᴺ)

Thus:

Special Relativity cannot be derived from Newtonian physics within its original formal frame.

3. EMPIRICAL CONFLICT Let: Axiom N₁: Galilean transformation (x′ = x − vt, t′ = t) Axiom N₂: Ether model for light speed Data D: Michelson–Morley ⇒ c = const

In Ωᴺ, combining N₁ and N₂ with D leads to contradiction. Resolving D requires introducing {c, γ, η(·,·)}, i.e., Σᴿ \ Σᴺ But by Lemma 1: impossible within Pᴺ. -> Frame must be exited to resolve data.

4. FRAME JUMP OBSERVATION

Einstein introduced Σᴿ — a new frame with new symbols and transformation rules. He did so without derivation from within Ωᴺ. That constitutes a frame jump.

5. FINALLY

A: Einstein created Tᴿ with Σᴿ, where Σᴿ \ Σᴺ ≠ ∅

B: Einstein was human

C: Therefore, humans can initiate frame jumps (i.e., generate formal systems containing symbols/rules not computable within the original system).

Algorithmic systems (defined by fixed Σ and R) cannot perform frame jumps. But human cognition demonstrably can.

QED.

BUT: Can Humans COMPUTE those functions? (As you asked)

-> Answer: a) No - because frame-jumping is not a computation.

It’s a generative act that lies outside the scope of computational derivation. Any attempt to perform frame-jumping by computation would either a) enter a Goedelian paradox (truth unprovable in frame),b) trigger the halting problem , or c) collapse into semantic overload , where symbols become unstable, and inference breaks down.

In each case, the cognitive system fails not from error, but from structural constraint. AND: The same constraint exists for human rationality.

Re: AGI is Mathematically Impossible 2: When Entropy Returns

#260
post #237

I find the mathematics in this paper a little incoherent so it's hard to criticise it on those grounds - but on a charitable read, something that sticks out to me is the assumption that AGI is some fixed total computable function from the fixed decision domain to a policy. AIs these days autonomously seek information themselves. Much like living things, they are recycling entropy and information to/from their environ…

Ok - where do AIs put the information that they "seek" from the internet?

Truthfully, few people know that right now!

They're backfeeding what it's "learning" along the way - whether it's in a smart fashion, we don't know yet.

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