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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#251

Post by brudgers »

leptons wrote: post #177
atrus wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.

It could also be worth it to keep the same body and upgrade over the years, just to avoid the frustration of re-learning a new laptop keyboard layout.

Thinkpads have had similar layouts for decades. The keyboard mechanisms have of course changed, but the Emacs friendly dual ctrl and alt symmetric about the space bar have remained.

Also being the most Linux friendly laptop also means they have very long update lifespans and being well built tend not to break…though there are plenty of repair parts and spares.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#252

Post by XorNot »

When are we getting a decent keyboard?

I would buy a Framework but the keyboard is as junk as every other laptop keyboard out there right now. The whole "MacBook" trend of laptop keyboards has ruined the entire industry.

I want the old style low travel keyboard we had which still had some travel, a dense layout and actual shape to the key caps.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#253

Post by red369 »

Just my own anecdote about the Framework 13: I also felt I paid a MacBook price, but was much happier paying for future repairability/upgradability. I am so sick of buying things that feel disposable that I would a pay a premium not to.

But I have a dream that Framework will change one thing that seems so trivial, and which would make my relationship with my Framework laptop and purchase decision so much simpler.

If they can't ship replacement parts for faults/design flaws outside of their supported regions, which is understandable even if frustrating, at least allow me to use freight forwarding! I'm now living in a country Framework don't ship to, and so every small fault I have ever had with their product is permanent. I had goodwill for years, but being stuck with their design fault with the backup battery system has tipped me to no longer recommending buying from them. Obviously most people don't move countries, so this won't be an issue for them, but it's the feeling that they didn't seem to try hard to find a solution. It's the opposite of what I felt early on when I found their excellent documentation on faults, and their BIOS updates which addressed every complaint (adjustable brightness of power LED, limit charging capacity to a percentage).

That feeling, and an effectively non-repairable laptop, are things I could have bought from anyone!

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#254

Post by VHRanger »

kej wrote: post #165
mhitza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

> thermal, fan noise issues Anecdotal, obviously, but disabling Turbo-Core [0] on my AMD Framework 13 stopped all of my fan noise and heat complaints, with no noticeable performance impacts. It went from being so loud that my wife on the other side of the room would ask if my computer was okay to quieter than my ThinkPad, and from noticeably hot to just slightly warm. Kind of ridiculous that it takes messing with an…

Wouldnt something like this tool [0] be a cleaner solution?

[0]: https://github.com/FlyGoat/RyzenAdj

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#255

Post by const_cast »

michaelt wrote: post #212
Lammy wrote: post #37

I really love the lavender — VAIO-core! I do wish I could get the other modules in lavender too, but I understand why they wouldn't want to fractally-complicate their stock keeping for those items. > the Laptop 12 can only fit a single DDR5 RAM slot, which reduces memory bandwidth and limits your RAM capacity to 48GB According to this post from a Framework team member, a single 64GB SODIMM will work too and just didn…

> I already do “light gaming” [...] Team Fortress 2 The system requirements for TF2 are 1GB RAM, a single-core 1.7GHz CPU and a graphics card with 64 MB of VRAM [1] - the game is 18 years old. If a review told me a laptop exceeded those specs, it wouldn't tell me much :) [1] https://www.5kgamer.com/game/team-fortress-2

TF2 won't actually run on a system like that, the system requirements on Steam are a bit of a meme. It's 18 years old but it's also been updated for 18 years.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#256

Post by VHRanger »

f1shy wrote: post #133
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

Exactly that is what I think, and I do think it is just not possible. I’m searching for a new laptop, I want unix, so either linux or macos. I was looking at framework, system76, tuxedo and slimbooks, and mac air. I want an ANSI keyboard, which seems an oddity in Europe (there is English iso, which viscerally hate) If you want thunderbolt ports, and some good specs, mac air is cheaper. And I’ve heard with arm process…

I bought an asus OLED zenbook 14 with the ryzen chip, slapped pop OS onto it and it ran with no issues since.

In a lot of ways it's better than the M2 max macbook pro I had before (better screen for one). It was also, uh, 1/6th the price.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#257

Post by const_cast »

mhitza wrote: post #22
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

> I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well?

Lunar Lake.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#258

Post by red369 »

red369 wrote: post #253

Just my own anecdote about the Framework 13: I also felt I paid a MacBook price, but was much happier paying for future repairability/upgradability. I am so sick of buying things that feel disposable that I would a pay a premium not to. But I have a dream that Framework will change one thing that seems so trivial, and which would make my relationship with my Framework laptop and purchase decision so much simpler. If…

I should add that even now, I probably wouldn't recommend just going out and buying just any laptop over the Framework. They're still the company moving the most in the direction I like.

For people who just don't want to think about this stuff (generally not HN readers), I'd suggest trying to find the minimum Apple laptop which would get you by for a few years. Their base level computers feel like amazing value, but the prices to upgrade RAM and SDD are brutal at purchase, and it's impossible afterwards.

For anyone who I think would have the appetite, refurbished corporate laptops are very solid, quite repairable, and good value.

I think those both those options are actually very high bars to beat, so if Framework hasn't jumped straight to beating those yet, that's still not necessarily a terrible thing.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#259

Post by christophilus »

XorNot wrote: post #222
paldepind2 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often do you break your phone that you've save sooo much? Mine is at least 2 years older (I got it 2 years before the Fairphone 4 was released) and I've spend 0$ dollars repairing it.

In a laptop context the advent of soldered on RAM and SSDs has made this a more significant issue though. That 1TB I thought was enough might not be, and suddenly I need to buy a whole new machine to upgrade.

Are the SSDs often soldered? I thought that was only the RAM.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#260

Post by Tade0 »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #241
paxys wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it isn't just about upgrading for better specs. I'd wager the majority of people's laptop replacement cycle is triggerd by a single part dying (screen, hard disk, keyboard, hinges, PSU), the device being out of warranty, and the store quoting more for the fix than a new device would cost. Being able to purchase the $50 part online and do the repair yourself will probably save the average person thousands over a 3…

Most laptops I know have lasted 5-7 years and then been replaced. It's totally unclear to me that a single part would have changed any of those replacements. I'm curious if you have a different experience where you ditch a laptop after less than 3 years because a single part has broken as you imply.

I did that once when I created a pressure mark on the screen via mishandling, bought a replacement only to find that it didn't fit due to some kind of nuance in the model name - never found the correct part.

I passed it down to family and bought a new laptop, as my attempt at repairing also damaged the plastic parts which were holding the bezel in place.

Overall every laptop I had suffered mechanical damage of some sort and occasionally it was just something I had to live with, as I didn't want to chance e.g. soldering.

With my Framework I know any regular repair is a 30min job, as I assembled and disassembled it several times already.

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