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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#251

Post by tacticalturtle »

tootie wrote: post #142
incomingpain wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They arent. They need probable cause to arrest just like any other law enforcement. If they just arrest you because you're annoying or fake charges. You can sue them for deprivation of rights.

CBP has no authority to arrest citizens. They would have to be assuming Lander is undocumented and they clearly have no reason to suspect that.

There’s a lot we don’t know about the composition of the group here.

The Trump administration has been routinely embedding other agencies like the FBI in ICE operations:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/ice-oper...

Impeding federal law enforcement officers is a crime - to which other federal officers (not sure about ICE) have the ability to make an arrest.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#252

Post by speakfreely »

acdha wrote: post #244
speakfreely wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So until every police officer follows the law, everywhere, in every instance, you believe anyone should be entitled to obstruct arrests if they disagree with the law?

That’s a great example of a straw man argument. I especially like the way you start by acknowledging that the question is official misconduct but by the end of the sentence have flipped it to blame people for expecting law enforcement officers to follow the law.

Sure, much as yours was a great example of the perfectionist fallacy.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#253

Post by jmye »

lmm wrote: post #220
acdha wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough You’re arguing that your personal opinion is “the will of the electorate”. The policies directing local police to focus on crime affecting their communities instead of shadowing federal immigration enforcement weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives. California’s sanctuary laws are the subje…

> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it. > the kind of people most of the elec…

Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento?

I’m so tired of absolute nonsense like this being said by people who clearly know absolutely nothing about how this country works. Is this just barely disguised foreign agitation?

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#254

Post by lmm »

jmye wrote: post #253
lmm wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it. > the kind of people most of the elec…

Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento? I’m so tired of absolute nonsense like this being said by people who clearly know absolutely nothing about how this country works…

> Why do you think the “national electorate” should have any say in California state laws? Is it just a basic lack of understanding civics, or do you think states, cities and local communities should be abolished because people in Alabama should actually be in charge of people in Sacramento?

Immigration law isn't California state law, it's federal law, duly passed (and frankly any other approach would be crazy, unless you're proposing to introduce border checks between states). If the duly elected federal government felt it appropriate to leave the matter to the states, they would! If it was constitutionally inappropriate, the legislature would strike it down. States set their own laws on a lot of matters, but they don't get to opt out of federal laws they don't like.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#255

Post by nagaiaida »

speakfreely wrote: post #250
affinepplan wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are not "thugs". They are federal officers. are they? maybe they should identify themselves as such with names, badge numbers, and warrants? > They are upholding federal law. they clearly aren't given the number of court cases the Trump administration is rapidly losing related to its deportation activity. > This constant manipulation of words is tiring this constant sanewashing of cruelty is tiring. you should…

> I hope you eventually look back on this part of your life with shame about your beliefs and who and what you defended. I suspect his post will read as a calm and level-headed analysis 10-20 years from now. He showed no support or protest against any political policy.

banal, even.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#256

Post by pjc50 »

lmm wrote: post #220
acdha wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough You’re arguing that your personal opinion is “the will of the electorate”. The policies directing local police to focus on crime affecting their communities instead of shadowing federal immigration enforcement weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives. California’s sanctuary laws are the subje…

> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it. > the kind of people most of the elec…

> Enacted at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it.

This is the most extreme version of the anti-states rights argument and effectively claims the California legislature shouldn't exist.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#257

Post by UmGuys »

speakfreely wrote: post #249
watusername wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, read the next paragraph. It's clearly an acknowledgment of privilege and an appeal: “I know I will get due process and that my rights will be protected,” Lander said to a throng of supporters who gathered spontaneously in Foley Square that evening after his release. “But Edgardo will sleep in an ICE detention facility God knows where tonight…he has been stripped of his due process rights in a country that is su…

So I ask this question in good faith: What are the due process rights that have been taken away? What is this administration doing different from the prior ones in regards to detaining suspected illegal immigrants? While I don't doubt there could be something, I haven't seen a coherent answer to this question. I am happy to change my mind, but in this situation all I see is a political candidate interfering with fede…

They're deporting them without trial. They don't even try to confirm they capture the right people. They've arrested several US citizens. Notice where this arrest occurred: at a courthouse. Why? Because this person was complying with the law and going through the immigration process.

What about masked men kidnapping random people, then sending them somewhere like a prison in El Salvador seems just to you? Do you remember this happening previously in your life?

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#258

Post by lmm »

pjc50 wrote: post #256
lmm wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it. > the kind of people most of the elec…

> Enacted at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. This is the most extreme version of the anti-states rights argument and effectively claims the California legislature shouldn't exist.

There are plenty of things that are rightly decided at state level. That doesn't mean it's OK for states to undermine the rules the populace (via their duly elected federal representatives) have chosen to make law at federal level. (And in any case it would be practically impossible to set immigration policy at state level, given that we don't have any intranational border control).

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#259

Post by scienceman »

foogazi wrote: post #97
scienceman wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not seeing the "assaulting law enforcement" in this video -- am I missing something?

What’s with the bootlickers in these posts ?

Not a bootlicker -- if the commenter said the video is of Lander assaulting law enforcement, I expect to see it.

Edit: this was the video linked https://x.com/courtneycgross/status/1935010369077915990

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#260

Post by scienceman »

lazide wrote: post #99
scienceman wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agents who are masked and don't have any obligations to present warrants before abducting someone... really are we saying this is reasonable?

Police in general don’t need to show warrants to arrest people. In high profile situations it may be done to minimize political blowback, but clearly that is not a primary concern in this situation (except toward individual officers, which is why they are masking). In many situations, they just need a documentable/articulable (to a judge, later) reasonable belief that a crime was occurring in their presence, or in ot…

That all makes sense, but these don't look like police officers — these are guys wearing backwards baseball caps and surgical masks. Effectively, our trust that someone holds position of authority in law enforcement is based on their uniform and badge.

If we normalize some dude in a mask and a baseball cap as someone that has the authority to arrest you and put you in an unmarked van, that represents a real and serious breakdown of trust and order in society.

ICE agents should wear a real uniform (ICE with their real name), have uncovered faces, and be required to show badge/authorization upon request -- otherwise members of society have to reason to trust them (or people who look like them).

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