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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#251
post #214

I think of programming languages as an interface between humans and computers. If anything, the industry expanded because of this abstraction. Not everyone has to learn assembly to build cool shit. To me AI is the next step in this abstraction where you don't need to learn programming languages to potentially build cool projects. The hard part of software engineering is scale anyways. My bet is that this will expand…

The C abstracting the assembly or the GC a abstracting away memory management work because they were possible to implement in a deterministic and reliable way (well, in the case of garbage collection, not all the time)

But I don't think that's a similar situation for LLMs, where the hallucinations or failure to debug their own issues are way too frequent to just "vibe code"

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#252
I am finding the most destructive aspect of LLM assistance to be the loss of flow state.

Most of the time I can go faster than these tools if I have confidence in myself and allow the momentum to build up over the course of 20-30 minutes. Every time I tab out to an LLM is like a 5 minute penalty over what I could have done unaided on a good day.

Getting the model prepared to help you in a realistic domain often takes a few minutes of arranging code & comments so that it is forced toward something remotely sane. I'll scaffold out entire BS type hierarchies just so I can throw a //TODO: .... line in the middle somewhere. Without this kind of structure, I would be handling unfiltered garbage most of the time.

It's not that these tools are bad, it's that we need to recognize the true cost of engaging with them. ChatGPT is like a jackhammer. It will absolutely get you through that concrete slab. However, it tends to be quite obnoxious & distracting in terms of its operational principles.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#253
post #3

Machine translation and speech recognition. The state of the art for these is a multi-modal language model. I'm hearing impaired veering on deaf, and I use this technology all day every day. I wanted to watch an old TV series from the 1980s. There are no subtitles available. So I fed the show into a language model (Whisper) and now I have passable subtitles that allow me to watch the show. Am I the only one who remem…

Using AI to generate subtitles is inventive. Is it smart enough to insert the time codes such that the subtitle is well enough synchronised to the spoken line?

As someone who has started losing the higher frequencies and thus clarity, I have subtitles on all the time just so I don't miss dialogue. The only pain point is when the subtitles (of the same language) are not word-for-word with the spoken line. The discordance between what you are reading and hearing is really distracting.

This is my major peeve with my The West Wing DVDs, where the subtitles are often an abridgement of the spoken line.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#254
> People coding with LLMs today use agents. Agents get to poke around your codebase on their own. They author files directly. They run tools.

I'll be damned if I give up control of my machine to a tool that hallucinates actions to take using hastily put together and likely AI-generated "agents". I still want to be the primary user of my machine, and if that means not using cutting edge tools invented in the last 6 months, so be it. I don't trust the vast majority of tools in this space anyway.

> I’m sure there are still environments where hallucination matters.

Still? The output being correct matters in _most_ environments, except maybe art and entertainment. It especially matters in programming, where a 99% correct program probably won't compile.

> But “hallucination” is the first thing developers bring up when someone suggests using LLMs, despite it being (more or less) a solved problem.

No, it's not. It's _the_ problem that's yet to be solved. And yet every AI company prefers chasing benchmarks, agents, or whatever the trend du jour is.

> I work mostly in Go. [...] LLMs kick ass generating it.

I also work mostly in Go. LLMs do an awful job generating it, just as with any other language. I've had the same shitty experience generating Go, as I've had generating JavaScript or HTML. I've heard this excuse that the language matters, and IME it's just not the case.

Sure, if you're working with an obscure and niche language for which there is less training data, I suppose that could be the case. But you're telling me that there is no good training data for Rust, the trendiest systems language of the past ~decade? C'mon. Comparing Rust to Brainfuck is comical.

I won't bother responding to all points in this article. I will say this: just as AI doomsayers and detractors deserve criticism, so does this over-the-top praising. Yes, LLMs are a great technology. But it is also part of a wildly overhyped market that will inevitably crash as we approach the trough of disillusionment. Their real value is somewhere in the middle.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#255
> If you were trying and failing to use an LLM for code 6 months ago, you’re not doing what most serious LLM-assisted coders are doing.

This sounds like the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

> People coding with LLMs today use agents. Agents get to poke around your codebase on their own.

That's a nonstarter for closed source, unless everything is running on-device, which I don't think it is?

> Part of being a senior developer is making less-able coders productive

Speak for yourself. It's not my job.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#256
The best I can offer skeptics is the more you work with the tools the more productive you become. Because yes the tools are imperfect.

If you've had a dog you know that "dog training" classes are actually owner training.

Same with AI tools. I see big gains for people who spend time to train themselves to work within the limitations. When the next generation of tools come out they can adapt quickly.

If this sounds tedious, thats becuase it is tedious. I spent many long weekends wrestling with tools silently wrecking my entire codebase, etc. And that's what I had to do to get the productivity improvements I have now.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#257
post #58

I have a very simple counter argument: I've tried it and it's not useful. Maybe it is useful for you. Maybe even the things you're using it for are not trivial or better served by a different tool. That's fine, I don't mind you using a tool far away from my codebase and dependency tree. It has not been useful for me, and it's very unlikely it's ever going to be. Except that's not the argument people are making. They…

You have to learn to filter out the people who say "it's going to replace human experts" and listen to the people who say "I'm a human expert and this stuff is useful to me in these ways".

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#258

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

This 2 year old Goroutine pool implementation [1] is 95% GPT generated and has commit history showing what GPT did. It's an older example, but it is one.

[1]: https://github.com/devchat-ai/gopool

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#260

i feel like surprisingly, front end work which used to be viewed by programmers as "easier" is now more difficult of the two, because it's where LLMs suck the most you get a link to a figma design and you have to use your eyes and common sense to cobble together tailwind classes, ensure responsiveness, accessibility, try out your components to make sure they're not janky, test out on a physical mobile device, align m…

Programmers who think front end is "easier" than backend have been wrong for well over a decade. https://simonwillison.net/2012/Feb/13/why-are-front-end/
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