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The Brief Origins of May Day

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Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#251

Post by joseda-hg »

reillyse wrote: post #196
bee_rider wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always thought of it in these terms: Working class: you are sustained by your current labor. Upper class: you can sustain yourself based on the returns from your investments more-or-less indefinitely. Middle class, between the two: you can sustain yourself off your investments for so long that you can’t practically be threatened by unemployment. It is a labor relations issue explicitly, you need a union if you a…

I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. It feels like it's used by people to distance themselves from "working class" because they feel that working class is somehow beneath them. All of the middle class in todays parlance are just slightly more affluent working class. If you sell your time for money you are working class. If you make money from having money you are bourgeoisie. If you have to thi…

There is some reasonable split between "bankrupted by missing even a single payment period" and "can live off dividends and saving by N years"

At the very least the second camp is the only one that can effectively vote with their wallets, Poorer and you can't afford the better alternatives, richer and you have better means of influence (Or deal with things that are low volume and less price sensitive)

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#252

Post by nh23423fefe »

ramesh31 wrote: post #232
flmontpetit wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy how we've abstracted financial serfdom out of the status of being a property owner. Contrasted with renting it surely seems like independence, but whether the bank squeezes extra value out of you directly or through the proxy of a landlord, the end result is similar.

>Contrasted with renting it surely seems like independence, but whether the bank squeezes extra value out of you directly or through the proxy of a landlord, the end result is similar. The difference is public policy. Owning property in the US absolutely elevates you to a higher privileged status above renters. How many homeowners were being evicted from their homes after missing a couple mortgage payments during the…

People with equity in a home aren't the same as delinquent renters?

different circumstances are treated differently?

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#253

Post by bee_rider »

throw0101a wrote: post #250
bee_rider wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t like this definition as much because it includes most people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck with minimal leisure expenditure, right? Like if you by groceries, rent an apartment, have a bus pass, qualify for Medicare, and you have a Netflix account or get fast food (discretionary spending), then you seem to be middle class by this definition. Is that right? Maybe Medicare bumps you out. But ok, you can ge…

> […] then you seem to be middle class by this definition. Is that right? Middle-class is a spectrum like being "rich" is.

It is a definition so I can’t say it is wrong, but a spectrum that includes everyone who is not either actively in the process of running out of money, or able to quit working and become a capitalist, does not seem super useful to me.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#254

Post by ramesh31 »

nh23423fefe wrote: post #252
ramesh31 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Contrasted with renting it surely seems like independence, but whether the bank squeezes extra value out of you directly or through the proxy of a landlord, the end result is similar. The difference is public policy. Owning property in the US absolutely elevates you to a higher privileged status above renters. How many homeowners were being evicted from their homes after missing a couple mortgage payments during the…

People with equity in a home aren't the same as delinquent renters? different circumstances are treated differently?

>different circumstances are treated differently?

Yes, exactly. My entire point is that owning a home is nothing like renting, even if you're spending the same amount, and is treated as a privileged status.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#257

Post by susiecambria »

I wonder how many people, tech included, know someone in a union. Similarly, I've always been curious about working for the government. When I was in high school and even college, going to work meant private sector even though half my family (uncles, grandparents) worked for the government.

I know for sure that not knowing union members and not truly knowing that family worked in government influenced my views and some choices.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#258

Post by reillyse »

john-h-k wrote: post #237
reillyse wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. It feels like it's used by people to distance themselves from "working class" because they feel that working class is somehow beneath them. All of the middle class in todays parlance are just slightly more affluent working class. If you sell your time for money you are working class. If you make money from having money you are bourgeoisie. If you have to thi…

> If you sell your time for money you are working class. This would put a trader earning $3m/yr as working class. That’s fine I guess, but then we need another distinction, for the difference between that person and a minimum wage worker. Now in all the conversations where we would say “working class” we use this new term, because we almost always mean things relating to income level rather than labour vs owner. And…

A trader is working class. They are just rich. As soon as they stop working as a trader their income will stop.

You can be rich working class. If you acquire enough capital where you no longer work and just deploy your capital you are no longer working class.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#259

Post by DrillShopper »

theamk wrote: post #244
DrillShopper wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's never ceases to amaze me how much software folks think that their job cannot easily injure or kill them. All of the devs I know have no work/life balance, skip doctor's appointments because of work commitments, and several I know have had strokes or heart attacks at their desk while pushing to meet a deadline. Just because you likely won't be killed in a crane collapse or someone dropping a hammer doesn't mean t…

If that describes you, I advice you to look at other jobs ASAP. I've seen what you describe in Amazon - high pressure, constant thread of being fired, stress, no work/life balance, etc... Many other jobs are different. Sure, things are inefficient, but the expectations are not very high either. You come in, do your 7 hours of work (or don't even come in if you are remote), and go home. It's pretty hard to get fired,…

> Some people are trying to get a promotion, or are just full of energy - they may work very hard, skip work/life balance and stress out. But it's all optional, if you are happy with your initial salary, you don't have to do it.

Every place I have ever worked has been "up or out". Maybe 20 years ago that kind of job existed, but it does not now.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#260

Post by theamk »

DrillShopper wrote: post #259
theamk wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that describes you, I advice you to look at other jobs ASAP. I've seen what you describe in Amazon - high pressure, constant thread of being fired, stress, no work/life balance, etc... Many other jobs are different. Sure, things are inefficient, but the expectations are not very high either. You come in, do your 7 hours of work (or don't even come in if you are remote), and go home. It's pretty hard to get fired,…

> Some people are trying to get a promotion, or are just full of energy - they may work very hard, skip work/life balance and stress out. But it's all optional, if you are happy with your initial salary, you don't have to do it. Every place I have ever worked has been "up or out". Maybe 20 years ago that kind of job existed, but it does not now.

Such jobs certainly exist today, I know plenty of people who don't feel any pressure to get promoted, and people certainly won't get fired for lack of ambition or for being 2x slow than average engineer on their team.

I am in embedded/robotics though, other industries may be different.

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