Why not the awesome Gamemaker engine?
Migrating away from Rust
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Re: Migrating away from Rust
#252I did the same for my project and moved to Go from Rust. My iteration is much faster, but the code a bit more brittle, esp. for concurrency. Tests have become more important. Still, given the nature of what my project is (APIs and basic financial stuff), I think it was the right choice. I still plan to write about 5% of the project in Rust and call it from Go, if required, as there is a piece of code that simply cann…
> but the code a bit more brittle, esp. for concurrency Obligatory ”remember to `go run -race`”, that thing is a life saver. I never run into difficult data races or deadlocks and I’m regularly doing things like starting multiple threads to race with cancelation signals, extending timeouts etc. It’s by far my favorite concurrency model.
Yep, I do use that, but after getting used to Rust's Send/Sync traits it feels wild and crazy there are no guardrails now on memory access between threads. More a feel thing than reality, but I just find I need to be a bit more careful.
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#253Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Nobody has really pushed the performance issues. This is clearly false. The Bevy performance improvements that I and the rest of the team landed in 0.16 speak for themselves [1]: 3x faster rendering on our test scenes and excellent performance compared to other popular engines. It may be true that little work is being done on rend3, but please don't claim that there isn't work being done in other parts of the ecosy…
Wonderful work! ...although the fact that a 3x speed improvement was available kind of proves their point, even if it may be slightly out of date.
Most game engines other than the latest in-house AAA engines are leaving comparable levels of performance on the table on scenes that really benefit from GPU-driven rendering (that's not to say all scenes, of course). A Google search for [Unity drawcall optimization] will show how important it is. GPU-driven rendering allows developers to avoid having to do all that optimization manually, which is a huge benefit.
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#254I completely understand, and it's not the first time I've heard of people switching from Bevy to Unity. btw Bevy 0.16 just came out in case you missed the discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43787012
In my personal opinion, a paradox of truly open-source projects (meaning community projects, not pseudo-open-source from commercial companies) is that development seems to show a tendency of diversity. While this leads to more and more cool things appearing, there always needs to be a balance with sustainable development.
Commercial projects, at least, always have a clear goal: to sell. For this goal, they can hold off on doing really cool things. Or they think about differentiated competition. Perhaps if the purpose is commercial, an editor would be the primary goal (let me know if this is alreay on the roadmap).
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I don't think the language itself is the problem. The situation where you have to use mature solutions for efficiency is more common in games and apps.
For example, I've seen many people who have had to give up Bevy, Dioxus, and Tauri.
But I believe for servers, audio, CLI tools, and even agent systems, Rust is absolutely my first choice.
I've recently been rewriting Glicol (https://glicol.org) after 2 years. I start from embedded devices, switching to crates like Chumsky, and I feel the ecosystem has improved a lot compared to before.
So I still have 100% confidence in Rust.
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#255I really like Rust as a replacement for C++, especially given that C++ seems to become crazier every year. When reasonable, nowadays I always use Rust instead of C++. But for the vast majority of projects, I believe that C++ is not the right language, meaning that Rust isn't, either. I feel like many people choose Rust because is sounds like it's more efficient, a bit as if people went for C++ instead of a JVM langua…
>> a bit as if people went for C++ instead of a JVM language "because the JVM is slow" (spoiler: it is not) The OP is doing game development. It’s possible to write a performant game in Java but you end up fighting the garbage collector the whole way and can’t use much library code because it’s just not written for predictable performance.
I didn't mean that the OP should use Java. BTW the OP does not use C++, but Rust.
This said, they moved to Unity, which is C#, which is garbage collected, right?
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
And yet, if making your own game engine makes it intellectually stimulating enough to actually make and ship a game, usually for near free, going 10x slower is still better than going at a speed of zero.
If anything, making your own game engine makes process more frustrating, time consuming and leads to burnout quicker than ever, especially when your initial goal was just to make a game but instead you stuck figuring out your own render pipeline or inventing some other wheel. I have a headache just from thinking that at some point in engine development person would have to spend literal weeks figuring out export to A…
This seems entirely subjective, most importantly hinging on this part here: "all they wanted is to just make a game".
If you just want to make a game, yes, absolutely just go for Unity, for the same reason why if you just want to ship a CRUD app you should just use an established batteries-included web framework. But indie game developers come in all shapes and some of them don't just want to make a game, some of them actually do enjoy owning every part of the stack. People write their own OSes for fun, is it so hard to believe that people (who aren't you) might enjoy the process of building a game engine?
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#257I really like Rust as a replacement for C++, especially given that C++ seems to become crazier every year. When reasonable, nowadays I always use Rust instead of C++. But for the vast majority of projects, I believe that C++ is not the right language, meaning that Rust isn't, either. I feel like many people choose Rust because is sounds like it's more efficient, a bit as if people went for C++ instead of a JVM langua…
Rust is very easy when you want to do easy things. You can actually just completely avoid the borrow-checker altogether if you want to. Just .clone(), or Arc/Mutex. It's what all the other languages (like Go or Java) are doing anyway. But if you want to do a difficult and complicated thing, then Rust is going to raise the guard rails. Your program won't even compile if it's unsafe. It won't let you make a buggy app.…
If you use Rust with `.clone()` and Arc/Mutex, why not just using one of the myriad of other modern and memory safe languages like Go, Scala/Kotlin/Java, C#, Swift?
The whole point of Rust is to bring memory safety with zero cost abstraction. It's essentially bringing memory safety to the use-cases that require C/C++. If you don't require that, then a whole world of modern languages becomes available :-).
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> a bit as if people went for C++ instead of a JVM language "because the JVM is slow" (spoiler: it is not) The OP is doing game development. It’s possible to write a performant game in Java but you end up fighting the garbage collector the whole way and can’t use much library code because it’s just not written for predictable performance.
I didn't mean that the OP should use Java. BTW the OP does not use C++, but Rust. This said, they moved to Unity, which is C#, which is garbage collected, right?
C# also has "Value Types" which can be stack allocated and passed by value. They're used extensively in game dev.
Re: Migrating away from Rust
#259Re: Migrating away from Rust
#260I really like Rust as a replacement for C++, especially given that C++ seems to become crazier every year. When reasonable, nowadays I always use Rust instead of C++. But for the vast majority of projects, I believe that C++ is not the right language, meaning that Rust isn't, either. I feel like many people choose Rust because is sounds like it's more efficient, a bit as if people went for C++ instead of a JVM langua…
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