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U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

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Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#251

Post by rayiner »

MattGrommes wrote: post #242
rayiner wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixing diseases and abnormalities in humans is empathy and compassion.

The problem is not fixing diseases. The problem is what is defined as a disease or abnormality. The problem is people who are clearly choosing abnormalities based on politics, power grabs, and anti-science rhetoric.

Science and medicine is what has defined autism as a disease or abnormality. Science and medicine are telling us that the rates of these diseases are growing dramatically, for decades now.

RFK isn’t the one who made autism concern happen. My three year old’s teacher asked us to get him tested with the county for autism. It’s a very common thing parents are dealing with these days. I’d argue that what you’re saying is exactly backward. The medical community has defined a lot of normal behavior as autism.

Now, I agree RFK’s views on what’s causing autism are anti-scientific, and I doubt he’ll be able to figure out what’s causing it. But RFK has a platform because the medical community has diagnosed all these kids as autistic but doesn’t have an explanation for what’s causing it. So looks like RFK fill the void.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#252

Post by ActorNightly »

rayiner wrote: post #251
MattGrommes wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not fixing diseases. The problem is what is defined as a disease or abnormality. The problem is people who are clearly choosing abnormalities based on politics, power grabs, and anti-science rhetoric.

Science and medicine is what has defined autism as a disease or abnormality. Science and medicine are telling us that the rates of these diseases are growing dramatically, for decades now. RFK isn’t the one who made autism concern happen. My three year old’s teacher asked us to get him tested with the county for autism. It’s a very common thing parents are dealing with these days. I’d argue that what you’re saying is…

>Science and medicine is what has defined autism as a disease or abnormality.

Not really. DSM is not really scientific, its more statistical.

You could make arguments that autism is actually evolutionary, as people who are on the spectrum in certain ways are often better in select areas than neuro typical people.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#253

Post by ModernMech »

rayiner wrote: post #248
hollandheese wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Reducing the incidence of undesirable or maladaptive medical conditions is a good thing. That's why we have vaccines, for example. That's why we perform second trimester screening, for example.

> undesirable or maladaptive medical conditions

This is why autistic people are wary of efforts to "cure" autism -- because the people leading the charge always use dehumanizing language to frame their cause. It becomes a moral imperative. "We have to cleanse humanity of this scourge! We have to save the children!"

And what do we have to do to accomplish this goal? The solutions are always the same: register us all in a database, send us to a camp or a farm for "curing", and prevent us from reproducing through forced sterilization and/or euthanasia.

Unless and until autistic people are in charge, then all such efforts to "cure" autism and "find the cause" should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#254

Post by nailer »

throw16180339 wrote: post #175
47282847 wrote: post #55

It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here. What is it that makes autism so dangerous? To me it looks like part of an almost spiritual war against empathy/compassion by traumatized individuals trying to fight their own Jungian Shadow.

RFK has been quite clear that autistic people are undesirables. They're collecting our personal information so that we can be imprisoned or killed.

He’s being incredibly clear that when he talks about people that have trouble participating in society, he is talking about the 26% of people with profound autism.

Online autism conspiracy theory channels turn this into some kind of eugenics purge.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#255

Post by nailer »

perihelions wrote: post #57
cruzcampo wrote: post #44

[flagged]

I'll quote Kennedy's dehumanizing comments for context, that people can compare the two styles of rhetoric: - "Kennedy said many autistic children were “fully functional” and “regressed … into autism when they were 2 years old. And these are kids who will never pay taxes, they’ll never hold a job, they’ll never play baseball, they’ll never write a poem, they’ll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a to…

I didn’t realise until other people replied to you that you weren’t using dehumanising sarcastically.

There is nothing dehumanising about acknowledging the existence of the profoundly autistic.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#256

Post by [deleted] »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #62
austin-cheney wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest Americans actually do? They voted this in knowing this would happen. It’s one thing to shout into a void about some vague disagreement, but it’s entirely different to actually take some form of real action. What should that action comprise?

> They voted this in knowing this would happen. Many of them mocked anyone saying this would happen. And even now, there are people cheering on the idea of ignoring due process.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#257

Post by coldtea »

47282847 wrote: post #55

It’s interesting to muse about the larger picture here. What is it that makes autism so dangerous? To me it looks like part of an almost spiritual war against empathy/compassion by traumatized individuals trying to fight their own Jungian Shadow.

>What is it that makes autism so dangerous?

In higher support needs, reduced autonomy (to the point of total dependency for ASD 3 cases), plus reduced social and intellectual capacity. Plus several commorbidities, in mental and bodily health.

It can be beneficial for society to have laser-focused and social-consensus challenging individuals with higher intelligence, but that's hardly the only or even the main way autism manifests - just the pop culture popular one (and the one whose members can more easily advocate for themselves, and present their cases as the sole representative, summed up in the "autism is a superpower" slogan).

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#258

Post by coldtea »

wahern wrote: post #235
gruez wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>violating Kantian ethics ??? How does "there's so much empathy that you actually suicide yourself" violate "Kantian ethics"? Also, if we accept that "dogwhistle" framing, what should we make of the average leftist commenter saying that greed/inequality is a weakness of US's economic system? Maybe that's actually a "dogwhistle" for hyper-collectivism, radical Bolshevism, and stepping over rich people? Or is the "dogw…

In Kantian ethics stealing a loaf of bread is wrong even if done by or for a starving person. In utilitarian ethics stealing bread in that context would be justified. The "civilizational suicide by empathy" narrative is rooted in a utilitarian ethics--empathy is good until the negative consequences outweigh the positive; whereas in Kantian ethics if empathy is good, it's always good, and if that possibly leads to civ…

>The "civilizational suicide by empathy" narrative is rooted in a utilitarian ethics

So in actually working ethics, and not some inflexible abstract principles posed by some German philosopher?

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#259

Post by coldtea »

thrance wrote: post #126
timoth3y wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I told you once that I was searching for the nature of evil. I think I’ve come close to defining it: a lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants. A genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow man. Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.” ― G. M. Gilbert, American psychologist who worked on the Nuremberg trials

It's crazy we got all those lessons figured out, clear as can be and right in the history books, that every kid is supposed to learn. And yet, here we are, back to square one.

As if most college students (never mind kids) know anything about history worth a dime? They couldn't tell you who did what to whom in WWII, never mind getting into any nuance. At best the majority misremembers some stuff they "learned" from movies.

Re: U.S. autism data project sparks uproar over ethics, privacy and intent

#260

Post by sizzle »

rayiner wrote: post #251
MattGrommes wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not fixing diseases. The problem is what is defined as a disease or abnormality. The problem is people who are clearly choosing abnormalities based on politics, power grabs, and anti-science rhetoric.

Science and medicine is what has defined autism as a disease or abnormality. Science and medicine are telling us that the rates of these diseases are growing dramatically, for decades now. RFK isn’t the one who made autism concern happen. My three year old’s teacher asked us to get him tested with the county for autism. It’s a very common thing parents are dealing with these days. I’d argue that what you’re saying is…

What were the symptoms your 3 yr old were exhibiting to be asked to screen them? Was the teacher right to say something or are they handing out these diagnoses like candy?
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