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IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

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Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#251

Post by leereeves »

relaxing wrote: post #250
scoofy wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a conflation in the idea behind this comment that drives me crazy. This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life that are actually based on a wide variety of factors. Equality based on race is treating peoples race as equal. The idea that we care about equity is important , but using race as a proxy means we need to care especially about the proxy and making sure the prox…

> This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. There is a leftist school of thought that agrees with you (focus on class instead of race). But I personally don’t believe that a focus purely on outcomes would be applied equitably while racism still exists. > we're so…

> Nothing keeps us for helping boys in some sectors and women in others

In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys. In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students.

We're all familiar with Girls Who Code, Women in STEM, and similar organizations. Where are equivalent organizations for young men?

Would it even be possible to start such an organization without being ostracized as a bigot?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#252

Post by scoofy »

relaxing wrote: post #250
scoofy wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a conflation in the idea behind this comment that drives me crazy. This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life that are actually based on a wide variety of factors. Equality based on race is treating peoples race as equal. The idea that we care about equity is important , but using race as a proxy means we need to care especially about the proxy and making sure the prox…

> This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. There is a leftist school of thought that agrees with you (focus on class instead of race). But I personally don’t believe that a focus purely on outcomes would be applied equitably while racism still exists. > we're so…

>Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done.

My point is that there are plenty of -isms going around and focusing on race alone completely ignores the fact that our lives are impacted in different ways. When we take a flat reductionist view, as if Sasha and Malia Obama face the same challenges as some randomly chosen person of the same race, we have the potential create a significant class divides within communities, as the folks of a certain race with a privileged background fill the rolls that ought to be set aside for folks who are still dealing with the significant economic after-effects of a discriminatory past.

>It is a fallacy to think we can’t focus on multiple things at once. Nothing keeps us for helping boys in some sectors and women in others.

The point and the problem is that there is no coordination, so if everyone is trying to make a positive impact, it is very likely that we will overshoot. This is always the case when you have an uncoordinated approach to dealing with a lagging indicator.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#253

Post by relaxing »

leereeves wrote: post #251
relaxing wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. There is a leftist school of thought that agrees with you (focus on class instead of race). But I personally don’t believe that a focus purely on outcomes would be applied equitably while racism still exists. > we're so…

> Nothing keeps us for helping boys in some sectors and women in others In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys. In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students. We're all familiar with Girls Who Code, Women in STEM, and similar organizations. Where are equivalent organizations for young men? Would it even be possible to start su…

> In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys.

Untrue. There’s a ton of work being done on how to better support boys in school.

> In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students.

What are these DEI programs favoring university admission for young women?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#254

Post by rayiner »

chimpanzee wrote: post #224
rayiner wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In which “third world” country have you experienced this? Bangladesh. My uncle fought a war to gain independence from Pakistan and establish a homeland for our ethnic group. > How does ethnic identity threaten a mixed person? Because ethnic identity is maladaptive in individualist American society.

>> In which “third world” country have you experienced this? > Bangladesh. My uncle fought a war to gain independence from Pakistan and establish a homeland for our ethnic group. I appreciate that, as a family history you carry. I'm curious, how do you feel about it in the context of your arguments made here? Do you think ethnic groups should fight for survival and a safe harbor (homeland)? (Rereading your prior answ…

> I'm curious, how do you feel about it in the context of your arguments made here? Do you think ethnic groups should fight for survival and a safe harbor (homeland)? (Rereading your prior answer, it sounds like a definitive "no")

If an ethnic group can realistically achieve self determination, that is the best course. Bangladesh's independence came at a terrible human cost, especially to the Hindus that were purged from the country during and after independence. But the result is a country that, for all its myriad other problems, doesn't suffer from significant sectarian or ethnic conflict.

If that's not realistic--and in the U.S. it isn't--then the best course is aggressive assimilation. In China, for example, 90% of the population is considered "Han Chinese," even though in reality that designation papers over a tremendous amount of underlying diversity.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#255

Post by relaxing »

scoofy wrote: post #252
relaxing wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This version of equity based on race is using race as a proxy for outcomes in life Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. There is a leftist school of thought that agrees with you (focus on class instead of race). But I personally don’t believe that a focus purely on outcomes would be applied equitably while racism still exists. > we're so…

>Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. My point is that there are plenty of -isms going around and focusing on race alone completely ignores the fact that our lives are impacted in different ways. When we take a flat reductionist view, as if Sasha and Malia Obama face the same challenges as some randomly chosen person of the same race, we h…

> My point is that there are plenty of -isms going around and focusing on race alone completely ignores the fact that our lives are impacted in different ways.

No it doesn’t. We have other means of support for people whose lives are impacted by e.g. poverty.

> When we have a flat reductionist as our view, as if Sasha and Malia Obama face the same challenges as some randomly chosen person of the same race, we have the potential create a significant class divides within communities.

There are already significant class divides in the community. Our system specifically encourages that sort of thing. The idea that a few high performers get the same benefits (ones that aren’t already means tested) as the poorest is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

> The point and the problem is that there is no coordination

A interesting point. I suspect it’s not true, but either way this is the first I’ve heard anyone arguing for better coordination. I don’t see that present in any of the current efforts.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#256

Post by leereeves »

relaxing wrote: post #253
leereeves wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing keeps us for helping boys in some sectors and women in others In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys. In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students. We're all familiar with Girls Who Code, Women in STEM, and similar organizations. Where are equivalent organizations for young men? Would it even be possible to start su…

> In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys. Untrue. There’s a ton of work being done on how to better support boys in school. > In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students. What are these DEI programs favoring university admission for young women?

Here's the opinion of the Society for Women Engineers:

> Cutting these [DEI] programs means fewer resources for students that need support. It’s devastating for women

https://swe.org/magazine/dei-faces-rising-waters/

That's an admission that DEI in schools supports women, from some of its biggest advocates. Where are the programs to support boys in school?

Edit: Of course, the mere existence of the Society for Women Engineers, AAUW, and other groups focused on women in education, without comparable groups for men, is another example of the phenomenon.

They're a remnant of a time when they were necessary, now favoring the group that has not only caught up, but taken the lead.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#257

Post by chneu »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #170
harimau777 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue that I have is that I've almost never seen an anti-DEI advocate actually engage with the issues. Even if I ultimately disagreed with them, I could respect someone who was willing to look at the problems the US is having with inequality and present a reasoned argument for alternatives to DEI. However, what I usually see is people either ignoring the issues people are facing, ignoring the arguments put forth…

I don't like DEI and am willing to engage. The US has a huge disparity of outcomes along racial lines. This is a legacy of slavery as well as social and governmental discrimination following slavery. [Racial biases persist today, but are much better today than the past, and we should focus on elimination of those biases, not adding new ones.] These factors result in real disparity in capabilities and merit today. Thi…

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society.

It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built."

You also don't seem to fully know what DEI is. You assume it's specifically hiring less qualified people because of their skin color. That isn't what DEI is.

It isn't racism. It's just giving other people the same chance of success. Representation is important.

Anti-DEI is just white people, once again, being offended that someone else is getting equal treatment. Look at trans hate, same thing. Look at book bans, same thing. It's just white folks getting upset and being offended.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#258

Post by leereeves »

chneu wrote: post #257
s1artibartfast wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like DEI and am willing to engage. The US has a huge disparity of outcomes along racial lines. This is a legacy of slavery as well as social and governmental discrimination following slavery. [Racial biases persist today, but are much better today than the past, and we should focus on elimination of those biases, not adding new ones.] These factors result in real disparity in capabilities and merit today. Thi…

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

> the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people

There is no opportunity pipeline for white people.

There is an opportunity pipeline for a small number of well connected, wealthy people who can get their kids into elite prep schools starting from kindergarten.

It's not open to working class white people.

Edit: that doesn't mean no working class white person can succeed. Just that the prep school, elite university, big corporation (or startup founder) "pipeline" - which certainly does exist - is for wealthy people.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#259

Post by s1artibartfast »

chneu wrote: post #257
s1artibartfast wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like DEI and am willing to engage. The US has a huge disparity of outcomes along racial lines. This is a legacy of slavery as well as social and governmental discrimination following slavery. [Racial biases persist today, but are much better today than the past, and we should focus on elimination of those biases, not adding new ones.] These factors result in real disparity in capabilities and merit today. Thi…

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

I guess we don't agree what DEI is. I'm against different criteria for people based on race. This is most apparent in school admissions and affirmative action.

I think it is a clear violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to have dual standards based on race.

Also, I don't appreciate you blatant racism putting all white people into a single stereotype, not do I think it is accurate

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#260

Post by computerthings »

skizm wrote: post #225
rayiner wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think people who have different skin colors do their jobs differently? Can you articulate how you think your white workers do their jobs differently than say your hispanic workers?

If you’re a cog stamper, probably doesn’t matter, but if you think for a living and need to generate ideas ever, diverse perspectives are invaluable. It’s the exact same as biology: bio diverse environments always outperform homogeneous ones. You can adapt to way more situations. If everyone thinks the same, and has roughly the same life experiences, when you hit a situation one person can’t think their way out of, n…

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