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France rejects backdoor mandate

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251–260 of 320 posts

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they need to understand how encryption works ? They’re mostly interested in the goal ( a lock that can be broken by law enforcement, and allow wiretapping), and will tell you that these things are already possible in the physical world today. In other words they’re fine with intruding upon citizens privacy - this doesn’t require any understanding of encryption I think ( and if encryption prevents that, their a…

This is incorrect. They will quite often claim that it is possible to do without breaking encryption, as required for banking and such. They do believe it is possible to have a backdoor that will _only_ be accessible to the government. Completely ignorant of how quickly that backdoor will be found by hostile state actors.

Well, hostile state actors can ( and do!) already wiretap lots of things in the physical world, in theory wiretapping / surveillance is only possible for governments etc. And the NSA semi-successfully inserted a backdoor through carefully chosen elliptic curves a few years ago ( DUAL_EC_DRBG ) by convincing folks to use a weak PRNG.

I’d say that the problem isn’t so much related to encryption, but to the fact that anything digital can be industrialized very quickly, and that the ‘if it goes wrong’ scenario can go really wrong if ( and when) your backdoor falls into the wrong hands.

From a lawmaker’s perspective, it’s just a different kind of risk, which they may or may not be assessing properly. In some ways I see it as closer to people misunderstanding how easy and how bad it is to lose large amounts of data : it’s not related to the inner workings of computers , but rather to the leverage that computers provide. The same is true with weak crypto : everything is great until suddenly everything is in the clear all at the same time, and read by people you don’t want.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the combination of them naming this evil bill "Child Sexual Abuse Regulation Proposal" to make it sound like an obviously good idea, and them asking to be exempt from it. So are you implying you are abusing children?

Using their own bullshit excuses against them, that might actually cause their heads to explode. Of course the rebuttal will be something something national security yadda yadda.

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Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "war" on drugs is what brings all of the violence and crime associated with drugs, not the drugs themselves. Some of it, certainly, but I doubt it's all. Violence committed by druggies trying to scrape up enough for their next hit would still happen.

Also, violence caused by a sociopath's giving a desperate addict $50 in exchange for the addict's shooting one of the sociopath's enemies would still happen. Also, addicts stealing from their moms would still happen, which is regrettable even if it is not violence.

The syringes thrown away on lawns and playgrounds probably also won't disappear just because the drugs get cheaper.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#254

I've found the original debates video on the National Assembly website. My French is good enough for that (not enough for cooking et al. though), so I believe I understood. I'm positively surprised by some deputies remarks. But Bruno (interior minister) Retailleau is either totally incompetent technically, with his advisors as well, or is a liar. "We will apply the math selectively, only for those that are a threat a…

> I'm positively surprised by some deputies remarks.

Not personally surprised, but I agree, they talk sense and understand the matter quite well. Thanks for finding and sharing the debate video, btw!

> Retailleau is either totally incompetent technically, with his advisors as well, or is a liar.

Sadly, gotta agree here too. M. Retailleau seems off the mark. He looks (to me) like he speaking in good faith tho, and that he “just” doesn’t get it.

Nevertheless, he has a point when he mentions Apple and CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse Material). Apple has shown that using homomorphic encryption could be 1) actually practical, and 2) helpful on such matters. Cf. https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni... & https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/homomorphic-encry... & https://repositorio.fgv.br/items/047aca31-ccdc-45bd-a7d3-6c0....

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#255
The dumb thing is you know the USA has a backdoor onto everything, probably including Tiktok by now. European states are trying to play fair when everyone else broke the rules a long time ago.

What we really need is a European social media company to use instead of this US dominated **show.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate. The impossible promise of backdoors that France can enter but no other country, organized criminal syndicate or petty government-employed stalker can find is only one impossible promise among the many we can hear fr…

French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. I'm french, i have not heard any people, work, street, even television or internet speak about that. The sad truth is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications. there are open source software that can't be tampered with, software that doesn't use a single server where backdoor can be…

Open source software can definitely be tampered with if the maintainers aren't vigilant enough. Look at what happened with XZ/LZMA debacle a few months ago. Yeah it didn't make it into most distros but still...

And the sad reality, the maintainers for most useful OSS projects are essentially paid employees of a company. Which can be easily enticed/forced by governments.

And then there's the hardware manufacturers. Even the most hardened software running atop compromised hardware becomes worthless.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#257
post #47
post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

With things like this I think of the bill that tried to change the value of pi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_pi_bill

It seems to me the bill tried to charge royalties on maths and that a result would have been state sanctioned calculations would contradict the value of pi.

The Wikipedia article notes that the redefining of pi was specifically not an aim of the bill, pi not being mentioned in it.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#258
post #234
post #228

Any grouping (such as nation) of individuals arises from some loss of freedom, income and privacy for the individuals. The loss of individuals or the contribution is the element that powers the nation or a community. 100% privacy means zero privacy-related contribution towards legal enforcement. So the question is all about striking a balance between loss of privacy and the need for legal enforcement. The negotiation…

In 2017 Copenhagen had a wave of gang shootings with 1-2 daily fatalities during the worst weeks. That is nothing compared to the most violent US cities but it was completely unprecedented for a Danish city. The gang warfare was stopped by massive police surveillance operations. This included military surveillance and signal intelligence planes [1] and helicopters to aid the police. It worked. I know it goes against…

I don't think anyone is opposed to police surveillance at least in public areas or with some warrant.

The questions are 1) proper judicial oversight in the latter case and 2) governments making it illegal for anyone to distribute more effective (assumed) privacy

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs should not be illegal in the first place; decriminalising them is known to have good results, (look at Portugal) I have no knowledge on the impact of that policy. On the other hand bruno Retailleau said at National Assembly that this kind of policy doesn’t work. What happens is that there are expensive legal drug and cheaper illegal drug that organized criminals provide. Hence there are more drug user but bar…

Tobacco is expensive because the French government is using the taxes on it to make up the overall shortfall of tax revenue. See the budget deficit from last year. Obviously the French government is saying that this is for health reasons but that reason has gone out of the window when a pack of smokes is 13 euros. So the black market flourishes. You can't keep increasing the price of a good without making sure that i…

Good point. Lots of reasons to love France. Also some good amount of things they get very wrong. Inheritance tax hitting the low class a lot these days, especially as house pricing is up through the roof.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article clearly states that it was pushed by the Interior Ministry. Those in there know exactly what they are doing. On the other hand, the interior minister himself has no clue, as well as all the politicians in the assemblée. This is where the double-bluff is from. (granted, I think Darmanain was an exception) We have to remember that, while the minister changes with the government and thus is by definition a p…

> Those are the ones making the calls. No, the career specialists in the ministries are the ones writing the reports and developing options. Ministers, in France and other democracies, bring their own staffs of experts. Those will work out a recommendation. The minister -- or more broadly speaking the politician -- makes the call. And frankly, I don't know of another way. Nobody can be an expert on all the things tha…

On paper. But it is easier to get influenced by intelligent "Subject Matter Experts" and they usually know how to nudge the public representatives their way.

This is a known and accepted flaw of rotating leadership in democracies.

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