Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

My 16-month theanine self-experiment

dynomight.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 447 posts

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#251

Post by riedel »

grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #138

For anyone looking for a sleep supplement, before you go down the rabbit hole of Theanine, Mg, etc. Try an OTC Azelastine or Fluticasone nasal spray for a month. Turns out my chronic poor quality, restless sleep was a dust mite allergy that I should have figured out and treated a decade ago. Would wake up with a stuffy nose and very dry mouth but didn't have too many issues during the day. I was allergic to my bed. B…

Antihistamines could even work without any allergy since they are typically used as mild sleeping aids. They are also used often off-label for stress reduction. [0]

[0] https://fherehab.com/learning/surprising-antihistamine-anxie...

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#252

Post by wslh »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #213
mg wrote: post #126

This is great. The author defines their own metrics, is doing their own A/B tests and publishes their interpretation plus the raw data. Imagine a world where all health blogging was like that. Personally, I have not published any results yet, but I have been doing this type of experiments for 4 years now. And collected 48874 data points so far. I built a simple system to do it in Vim: https://www.gibney.org/a_syntax_…

This is an N=1 trial. Dressing your N=1 trial up with lots of pseudo controls and pseudo blinding and data collection does not make it better. In fact: putting this much effort into any medication trial makes it much more likely that you’re going to be incentivized to find effects that don’t exist. I think it’s nice that the author admits that they found nothing, but statistically, worthless drugs show effects in muc…

In science, an n=1 experiment isn’t discarded; instead, it adds information that can guide future experiments.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#254

Post by cluckindan »

kerkeslager wrote: post #73
cluckindan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about other ingredients in coffee?

That's certainly an interesting thing I wish we knew more about. My qualitative experience is that coffee gives me more anxiety than any other form of caffeine I've tried, including ones that don't contain L-theanine.

Coffee is a significant source of beta-carbolines.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#255

Post by cluckindan »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #141
cluckindan wrote: post #70

”I’ve long found that tea makes me much less nervous than coffee, even with equal caffeine.” Well, of course you are less nervous when you avoid taking coffee: it contains a LOT of beta-carbolines which act as MAO-A inhibitors. MAO-A inhibition directly prevents adrenalines from being inactivated by oxidation.

How do you define "a LOT"? the only estimate I can find says there's 210mcg/L of beta-carbolines. Mainly harman and norharman, which have a binding affinity for MAO-A of 220nM and 2200nM respectively(lower is more potent). Not earth-shatteringly potent. These compounds have a fairly short half-life and they're reversible. Doesn't seem to be anywhere close to the potency of MAO inhibition used in psychiatric or entheo…

If by short you mean multiple weeks?

It is known they have a significant effect when consumed together with a weak stimulant, like caffeine or nicotine. Tobacco smoke is another significant source in the human diet.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#256

Post by cassepipe »

Kiro wrote: post #166
AequitasOmnibus wrote: post #6

From the discussions I've seen about theanine, the real benefit supposedly came when it was taken alongside caffeine. The thinking being that theanine moderated some of the jittery effects of caffeine, allowing the user to take higher doses of caffeine, which itself has some benefit on task concentration and focus. I wish the author had spent time addressing that theory specifically.

I don't understand what people refer to when they say "jittery effects". I don't feel anything when taking caffeine, no matter the dose. Or I want to think it helps me wake up but the effect is so small that I can't be sure. It's basically just a ritual for me.

My feeling is it either does nothing at a low does but does make me feel anxious when drinking, an uneasy feeling in my chest.

I don't have that problem with energy drinks (even it is the caffeine equivalent of something like 8 espressos) and tea (hasn't happened ever and I drink a lot of tea)

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#257

Post by cluckindan »

kristiandupont wrote: post #79
cluckindan wrote: post #70

”I’ve long found that tea makes me much less nervous than coffee, even with equal caffeine.” Well, of course you are less nervous when you avoid taking coffee: it contains a LOT of beta-carbolines which act as MAO-A inhibitors. MAO-A inhibition directly prevents adrenalines from being inactivated by oxidation.

In spite of the confidence you're stating this with, it sounds like a serious over-simplification of a very complex dynamic.

Occam’s razor. These compounds do exactly what I’ve described, which directly increases feelings of anxiety.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#258

Post by dublinben »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #196
mg wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An experiment of 1 person can very well produce useful data. It depends on the setup of the experiment. Imagine an experiment where a person's thumb gets randomly hit with either a hammer or a feather once per day. And they then subjectively rate the experience. After 1000 days of collecting data, I doubt that we would wrongly come to the conclusion that the hammer treatment leads to the nicer outcome. The setup of t…

Yes and no. The issue with a self-administered experiment is that becomes part of the experiment. Does the self-administration and the associated thoughts and beliefs affect the results? It’s not like the experimentor can issue a placebo to themselves.

>It’s not like the experimentor can issue a placebo to themselves.

TFA describes a protocol for doing just that. The author randomly selected between the treatment dose and placebo. They didn't reveal the choice until after the effect should be complete so they could record the results.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#259

Post by grafmax »

robwwilliams wrote: post #221
matthewdgreen wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an N=1 trial. Dressing your N=1 trial up with lots of pseudo controls and pseudo blinding and data collection does not make it better. In fact: putting this much effort into any medication trial makes it much more likely that you’re going to be incentivized to find effects that don’t exist. I think it’s nice that the author admits that they found nothing, but statistically, worthless drugs show effects in muc…

Complete injustice to this lovely study. Why do you say unblinded? Why do you insult a time series study as “dressing up with lots of data”? Would you rather see less data? Or are you volunteering to be test subject #2? Show us how to do it right Dr. M.! In my opinion this is an exemplary N=1 study that is well designed and thoughtfully executed. Deserve accolades, not derision. And the author even recognizes possibl…

I think social media discussions of science would be better informed by the concept of a ‘hierarchy of evidence’.

Anecdotal data, n=1 trials of varying quality, correlations studies, double blind studies (with small and large cohorts), studies without attempted replication and studies with heavy replication - they are all provide evidence of varying quality and can inform the holistic scientific picture. They can all serve a purpose such as inspiring further research, providing fodder for meta analyses, etc. It simply isn’t true that gathered evidence ought to be casually discarded if it doesn’t attain the highest levels of the hierarchy of evidence. Neither is it true that some small study showing (or not showing) some supposed effect should drastically change all our lifestyle habits. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. The concept of a hierarchy of evidence can help us navigate these apparently mixed signals so prevalent in popular science discussions.

Re: My 16-month theanine self-experiment

#260

Post by grumpy-de-sre »

riedel wrote: post #251
grumpy-de-sre wrote: post #138

For anyone looking for a sleep supplement, before you go down the rabbit hole of Theanine, Mg, etc. Try an OTC Azelastine or Fluticasone nasal spray for a month. Turns out my chronic poor quality, restless sleep was a dust mite allergy that I should have figured out and treated a decade ago. Would wake up with a stuffy nose and very dry mouth but didn't have too many issues during the day. I was allergic to my bed. B…

Antihistamines could even work without any allergy since they are typically used as mild sleeping aids. They are also used often off-label for stress reduction. [0] [0] https://fherehab.com/learning/surprising-antihistamine-anxie...

I find the steroids even more effective but they seem to exacerbate my anxiety after a few days though. Still haven't figured that out.

With regular use antihistamines quite quickly lose their drowsiness effects. But it's definitely a nice side effect for sleeping challenged folks. Azelastine is a second generation antihistamine so not particularly drowsiness inducing.

One of the interesting Azelastine quirks, is it's apparently somewhat antiviral [1].

1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38140540

Post reply on HN