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Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

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Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#251

Post by wutisgood »

Y_Y wrote: post #150
sdwr wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What? Where's the trick? He just bounced on his board" That's the natural state of innocence - their reference frame is how the experience feels (I'm going fast and almost falling over!). When the scene takes over, the reference point shifts to how it looks - the raw experience is overtaken in importance by progress and status and comparison.

> When the scene takes over, the reference point shifts to how it looks I accept this valid criticism of "posers" but I'd like to add that there's a strange loop here. It feels alien to me, but lots of people I know like to watch videos of themselves doing things (e.g. choreographed dances). It certainly does help to see how to improve, but also they get satisfaction from seeing themselves do the thing.

Meta commentary like this is a symbolic language euphemism for recording a video and watching it.

Look at you get satisfaction from recording in language observation of human agency.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#252

Post by kjkjadksj »

spencerflem wrote: post #180
kjkjadksj wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some non commodifiable sub cultures are easy to find in real life. E.g. drinking or doing drugs in public.

Oh man, drinking is not the example I'd use That's big industry

Not really in the style of degenerate drinking. Bud light can’t put out an ad of people beer bonging in a public park. They have to look upstanding, grilling in the backyard of a private home, not overindulging. Likewise with creme brule torch companies; they can’t advertise on grounds for drug use.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#253

Post by kjkjadksj »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #138
kjkjadksj wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that just covers maybe the first dip of the toe into a niche being commodified. For a skateboarder there are signs that kind of show if you really are a hardcore skateboarder or have just bought a board at zumies and don’t really ride it much. Is the board graphic damaged from rails? Are the shoes torn apart? The skaters I see hitting a waxed public cement bench without a shirt on during the work day probably…

No offence, but fuck the true in groups and you sound pretentious. True in groups are always just 'cool kids' who happen to micro focus on XYZ. Skaters skate not gatekeep people, and were just hyped to skate with anyone (at least in Santa Cruz). 'Oh you got a Nash board, cool. We should probably check if your trucks need tightening.' is the only normal response, not 'we should probably check how ground your trucks ar…

I’m not talking about being dicks to people. You miss the point. The point is there is a subculture within all the skateboarders there are that is actually legit about the sport. An identifiable group B in the greater group A. Gatekeeping need not anything to do with it. The skills and amount of time required especially as an adult do enough to demark this group.

Likewise with drinking. There are subsets of drinkers. The ones passing 40s around in a public park aren’t who you see in the ad material. The alcohol industry lobbyists would rather this subset not be highlighted at all in fact because it paints the rest of the industry as unsavory.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#254

Post by BarryMilo »

jayd16 wrote: post #115
BarryMilo wrote: post #20

I am a sci-fi nerd and I also found Neuromancer incredibly boring, but that's probably because it introduced so many concepts that others went on to refine. I'm not a fan if present-ish day sci-fi though, reality is depressing enough as it is.

Even with the now common sci-fi themes I still thought Neuromsncer was a fun read. It's basically the Italian Job or Ocean's 11 and the action of the heist pays off.

You might be right, I should give it another go

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#255

Post by spencerflem »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #252
spencerflem wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, drinking is not the example I'd use That's big industry

Not really in the style of degenerate drinking. Bud light can’t put out an ad of people beer bonging in a public park. They have to look upstanding, grilling in the backyard of a private home, not overindulging. Likewise with creme brule torch companies; they can’t advertise on grounds for drug use.

but like, they sell the commodities that that subculture relies on,

and while im sure the Whipped Cream Canister Companies (home kitchen use only) etc would rather come out and advertize normally, commerce is still happening

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#256

Post by sporkydistance »

Fricken wrote: post #214
sporkydistance wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Skaters skate not gatekeep people" That's the overstatement of the century. In group / out group always has gatekeepers by definition. Not sure where you grew up, but I sold skateboards at a bike & ski store for a while in the early 80's and skaters were absolute dicks about their self-enforced hierarchy. Skater culture claims to be inclusive but holy fuck that's a lie if you accidentally buy equipment just a tiny b…

Well you do have to have a skateboard and ride it to be part of the in-group but skateboarders are well reputed for being inclusive and super supportive of anyone who wants to learn. The sport is tolerant of weirdos because many of its legends are weirdos as well.

the "weirdos" had no problem humiliating anyone who tried to skate with them that they deemed a "poser".

please actually read my comment next time.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#257

Post by sporkydistance »

JohnBooty wrote: post #172
sporkydistance wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think with books like Neuromancer it is a matter of "when" you read it. If you read it today, it seems trite, like Snow Crash. If you read Neuromancer in 1984, it was mind-blowing. Same thing with Snow Crash in 1992. These books were decades ahead of their time. Neuromancer is more like PKDick, in that they are adult-themed books more about personal problems with sci-fi on the side, and it is actually part one of a…

If you read Neuromancer in 1984, it was mind-blowing. Same thing with Snow Crash in 1992 So do you like, only enjoy art produced in the last N years? Or art that was produced more than N years ago but didn't produce any imitators that retroactively diminished the original for you? I guess I'm not enjoying things right. I read Snow Crash in the 2000s (and LOTR in the 90s) and enjoyed the hell out of them even though t…

Comparing dragons to 3d internet chat rooms is kinda funny.

Arthurian dragons have largely been the same beasts for, oh, 1000 years.

3d internet chat rooms in Snow Crash have been tried and are ... lame.

I appreciate you thinking critically, but your arguments aren't very strong.

Also, I'm not gatekeeping, I suggesting why a person might not have liked something. There's a concept called "novelty", meaning "newness". The first time you encounter something it is exciting. If you spent the first 15 years of your life using an iPhone, then read an Asimov novel that introduced satellites, you'd be like "So what?" See? When Asimove wrote about satellite communication, IT DIDN'T EXIST yet. But when you read his book, it was old-hat to you, so you probably might not like his books.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to tell you how to enjoy things. Chill dude, you'll live longer.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#258

Post by Y_Y »

wutisgood wrote: post #251
Y_Y wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the scene takes over, the reference point shifts to how it looks I accept this valid criticism of "posers" but I'd like to add that there's a strange loop here. It feels alien to me, but lots of people I know like to watch videos of themselves doing things (e.g. choreographed dances). It certainly does help to see how to improve, but also they get satisfaction from seeing themselves do the thing.

Meta commentary like this is a symbolic language euphemism for recording a video and watching it. Look at you get satisfaction from recording in language observation of human agency.

You cannot look at me, you can only look at deez symbols

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#259

Post by robocat »

Miraste wrote: post #196
TeMPOraL wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those get commercialized quickly, too. You'd think that e.g. dumpster-diving for food would be "unprofitable" and require "high degree of personal investment which can't be substituted with money", but freeganism already turned into aspirational hobby for many, and has its own little ecosystem of influencers selling books. It fits in nicely among its even more commercial cousins, like "minimalism", "healthy eating",…

None of those require any personal investment. I think GP meant something that takes a lot of your personal time to do, while staying unprofitable no matter the skill level. For example, ROM hacks and emulators: they're difficult and time-consuming to create, and they can't be monetized for legal reasons.

> they can't be monetized

Yeah difficult to corporately commercialise, however they can be statusified.

Re: Anything threatening to be a subculture is commodified before it can walk (2014)

#260

Post by robocat »

torginus wrote: post #39
s1artibartfast wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious what subcultures comes to mind for you. I havent finished my coffee, but and drawing a blank on cultural interests that cant be commodified.

Playing an instrument (or being part of a band), being part of a writing club. Anything where the meat of the activity either requires genuine ability and/or effort, or enjoying skillful humans performing that activity for you. The problem of a lot of subcultures is that they define themselves in large part by flashy externalities, and commodification is part of their DNA. For example: You like an underground band's…

> so you buy their merch and go to their shows > sold themselves off as a commodity

A bit unfair because bands are often not making any money on their merch or their shows. My experience is that they are pleased if they cover their incidental costs. They seem to get zero financial payoff for their time invested. They may get good non-financial benefits.

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