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Life is more than an engineering problem

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Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they displaying reasoning, or the outcome of reasoning, leading you to a false conclusion? Personally, I see ChatGPT say "water doesn't freeze at 27 degrees F" and think "how can it possibly do advanced reasoning when it can't do basic reasoning?"

I'm not saying it reasons reliably, at all (nor has much success with anything particularly deep: I think in a lot of cases it's dumber than a lot of animals in this respect). But it does a form of general reasoning which other more focused AI efforts have generally struggled with, and it's a lot more successful than random chance. For example, see how ChatGPT can be persuaded to play chess. It still will try to make…

This is the most pervasive bait-and-switch when discussing AI: "it's general reasoning."

When you ask an LLM "what is 2 + 2?" and it says "2 + 2 = 4", it looks like it's recognizing two numbers and the addition operation, and performing a calculation. It's not. It's finding a common response in its training data and returning that. That's why you get hallucinations on any uncommon math question, like multiplying two random 5 digit numbers. It's not carrying out the logical operations, it's trying to extract the an answer by next token prediction. That's not reasoning.

When you ask "will water freeze at 27F?" and it replies "No, the freezing point of water is 32F", what's happening is that it's not recognizing the 27 and 32 are numbers, that a freezing point is an upper threshold, and that any temperature lower than that threshold will therefore also be freezing. It's looking up the next token and finding nothing about how 27F is below freezing.

Again, it's not reasoning. It's not exercising any logic. Its huge training data set and tuned proximity matching helps it find likely responses, and when it seems right, that's about the token relationship pre-existing in the training data set.

That it occasionally breaks the rules of chess just shows it has no concept of those rules, only that the next token for a chess move is most likely legal because most of its chess training data is of legal games, not illegal moves. I'm unsurprised to find that it can beat an average player if it doesn't break the rules: most chess information in the world is about better than average play.

If an LLM came up with a proof no one had seen, but it checks out, that doesn't prove it's reasoning either, just because it's next token prediction that came up with it. It found token relationships no one had noticed before, but that's inherent in the training data, and not a reflective intelligence doing logic.

When we discuss things like reinforcement learning and chain of reasoning, what we're really talking about are ways of restricting/strengthening those token relationships. It's back-tuning of the training data. Still not doing logic.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it reasons reliably, at all (nor has much success with anything particularly deep: I think in a lot of cases it's dumber than a lot of animals in this respect). But it does a form of general reasoning which other more focused AI efforts have generally struggled with, and it's a lot more successful than random chance. For example, see how ChatGPT can be persuaded to play chess. It still will try to make…

This is the most pervasive bait-and-switch when discussing AI: "it's general reasoning." When you ask an LLM "what is 2 + 2?" and it says "2 + 2 = 4", it looks like it's recognizing two numbers and the addition operation, and performing a calculation. It's not. It's finding a common response in its training data and returning that. That's why you get hallucinations on any uncommon math question, like multiplying two…

Put more succinctly: if it came up with a new proof in math that was then verified, and you went back and said "no, that's wrong" it would immediately present a different proof, denying the validity of its first proof, because it didn't construct anything logical that it can stand on and say "no, I'm right".

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it reasons reliably, at all (nor has much success with anything particularly deep: I think in a lot of cases it's dumber than a lot of animals in this respect). But it does a form of general reasoning which other more focused AI efforts have generally struggled with, and it's a lot more successful than random chance. For example, see how ChatGPT can be persuaded to play chess. It still will try to make…

This is the most pervasive bait-and-switch when discussing AI: "it's general reasoning." When you ask an LLM "what is 2 + 2?" and it says "2 + 2 = 4", it looks like it's recognizing two numbers and the addition operation, and performing a calculation. It's not. It's finding a common response in its training data and returning that. That's why you get hallucinations on any uncommon math question, like multiplying two…

These are all examples of how they're not very good at reasoning, not that they don't reason at all. Being a perfectly consistent logical process is not a requirement for reasoning.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#254
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter point: what is it about scraping the Internet and indexing it cleverly that makes you believe that would lead to the the creation of the ability to reason above it's programming? No one in neuroscience, psychology or any related field can point to reasoning or 'consciousness' or whatever you wish to call it and say it appeared from X. Yet we have this West Coast IT cultish thinking that if we throw money at i…

> No one in neuroscience, psychology or any related field can point to reasoning or 'consciousness' or whatever you wish to call it and say it appeared from X. This is not a good argument. Natural systems, the subject of neuroscience/psychology, are much harder to analyze than artificial systems. For example, it's really difficult to study atmospheric gases and figure out Boyle's/Charles law. But put a gas in a close…

This paper may be interesting to some of you:

Discretization of continuous input spaces in the hippocampal autoencoder

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2405.14600

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most pervasive bait-and-switch when discussing AI: "it's general reasoning." When you ask an LLM "what is 2 + 2?" and it says "2 + 2 = 4", it looks like it's recognizing two numbers and the addition operation, and performing a calculation. It's not. It's finding a common response in its training data and returning that. That's why you get hallucinations on any uncommon math question, like multiplying two…

These are all examples of how they're not very good at reasoning, not that they don't reason at all. Being a perfectly consistent logical process is not a requirement for reasoning.

You're begging the question by using the term "reasoning". In what sense are they reasoning if they're not using any logic at all?

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Islamic tradition it's the language of the heavens. The bottom line is that the best and/or perfect language there is, should be able to create the best and/or perfect literature either in the form of book/oration/etc. Mind you Quran is not originally in the form of book it's actually oral tradition and Muhammad is a well known illiterate person. In fact (I'm not making this up) currently there are many…

This point of view was basically covered in the interview. > I grew up in a French household, and I often feel that there are French words and expressions that better capture what I want to express than any English word or expression could. > Eco writes that when European scholars were arguing about what language Adam and Eve spoke, each one typically argued in favor of the language he himself spoke. So Flemish schol…

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Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Islamic tradition it's the language of the heavens. The bottom line is that the best and/or perfect language there is, should be able to create the best and/or perfect literature either in the form of book/oration/etc. Mind you Quran is not originally in the form of book it's actually oral tradition and Muhammad is a well known illiterate person. In fact (I'm not making this up) currently there are many…

This point of view was basically covered in the interview. > I grew up in a French household, and I often feel that there are French words and expressions that better capture what I want to express than any English word or expression could. > Eco writes that when European scholars were arguing about what language Adam and Eve spoke, each one typically argued in favor of the language he himself spoke. So Flemish schol…

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