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Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

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Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#251

Post by motorest »

DragonStrength wrote: post #215
dlisboa wrote: post #71

Coming from a Latin American the idea of re-starting your life across the country for college and then again for work (multiple times sometimes) while away from family and friends is very foreign. A lot of the conversation around modern American youth feeling isolated, lacking socialization and not building strong relationships seems that stem from this drive. Another thing that’s really weird and related is another…

From an American's perspective, given how much Latin American migrant inflow we have, it'd be easy for us to say the same about Latin American cultures and not imagining how we could leave everything behind. Perhaps people's choices don't always reflect their desires and instead reflect the economic realities around them. "Getting out" is viewed as success where I was from because "staying behind" meant a worse life…

> From an American's perspective, given how much Latin American migrant inflow we have, it'd be easy for us to say the same about Latin American cultures and not imagining how we could leave everything behind.

If you'd wish to make that claim then you'd be awfully wrong.

To start off, you'd be basing your personal opinion on what would most charitably be described as survivorship bias. I mean, try to think about it. The observable sample you're trying to generalize is a tiny subset of a whole population which is the output of a social process subjected to a long sequence of socioeconomical filters.

It would make as much sense as to claim that the average American is excellent at American football by using NFL teams as your sample of the US population.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#252

Post by dsign »

Dalewyn wrote: post #246
dsign wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go…

I'm going in a tangent too here :-) . One can say that atheism (with lower case) is a lack of religion. And then there is the meaning you suggest: Atheism as a belief in refuting god. That one is not a proper religion, but more like an ideology. Or maybe it is a religion in the sense that it can be used as a moral cornerstone.

More than playing with words, not believing in god may be one of three things: irrelevant, a disadvantage, or a door to a better world. It is irrelevant if you observe the rites and traditions of your society anyway, e.g. if you celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, and weddings and Christian Churches, and Christmas, and if your passing through this world does not intend to play with those "immutables". It's a disadvantage if you find yourself in an ostracized minority or simply disconnected from your neighbors. But it may also be a door to a better world if you yourself or your neighbor are gay, or if you yourself and your neighbor are medical researchers trying to understand why people age, or if you yourself and your neighbor are fighting for the rights of women in some dark corner of the world.

An atheist may write books where gods, angels and demons play with humans, and find it amusing and delight others with it. Or they may enter a church and find it pretty and feel empathy for the pain that move people to worship in such places. An atheist may come to terms with their irreverent faith on that pain not having to be an eternal part of the world, and may try to do something to change it.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#254

Post by DragonStrength »

Wytwwww wrote: post #249
DragonStrength wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same about the US-born, so I think you missed my point since you're trying to draw distinctions between the US-born and Latin American-born based on, well, I'm not sure what honestly. Your response is a bit odd, but kind of proves my point about pathologizing the ills of America and romanticizing other cultures, even those which are decidedly "Western" as well.

Statistically the number of Latin American migrants that move to the US yearly is tiny compared to the internal migration and especially to the number of people in Latin America who didn't go anywhere, though. The fact the it's not 100% who don't move doesn't really disprove anything.

It seems you haven’t read the context here where Americans are being framed as lacking community values because some small percentage migrate internally for better economic opportunities. The people here who see Americans who have moved to big cities form smaller places are seeing the exception, not the rule, as was pointed out elsewhere with statistics.

You’re proving my point exactly: those characterizations, especially in the context of Latin American culture as a foil, reveal their own biases. Both are based on anecdotes and vibes, not reality. To me, it's all narcissism of minor differences. I find the need to paint whole cultures with such a broad brush weird, especially based on my experience with people from around the world: most people aren't so different.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#255

Post by speed_spread »

Dalewyn wrote: post #246
dsign wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go…

Atheism is not a religion but the single belief that there is no all-powerful sentient being organising the human world, which is a staple of Western religions. The corollary being that anybody believing in God is delusional and/or manipulative. This usually stems from the realization that religious leaders are abusing their followers, using cognitive dissonance to force people to do things that run counter to their most basic interests while serving parasitic power structures.

Unfortunately atheism has the side effect of weakening the social constructs that organized religion brings. Not being a religion itself, it does not prescribe any replacement rituals.

The Japanese stance you describe would better be described as agnosticism, the belief that God's existence doesn't matter. This allows to mix and match existing rituals and beliefs into a coherent whole and puts the individual back into the driving position. It's a very sane way of handling fragmentation of belief and what I believe more people should be doing.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#256

Post by [deleted] »

DragonStrength wrote: post #235
bluepizza wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tend to be pushed towards immigration because of a lack of safety, of growth opportunities, and no hope that things will get any better. With that in mind, if Latin America had safety, I suspect at least half of the immigrants wouldn't leave, especially the ones who are able to hold a middle class job. Most of us would live in a lower standard of life if it allowed to stay close to friends and family. But not bein…

And the impoverished areas of America are also where gun crime and drug overdoses are the most common. Oh, and don't forget losing healthcare and education services as the area continues to decline. These things go together just like in Latin America. Moving in response to this reality is not an American values problems. I find the instinct to blame Americans for their discontent while framing others in the same situ…

[deleted]

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#257

Post by steveBK123 »

vel0city wrote: post #135
steveBK123 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is often overlooked by VHCOL urbanists. I split my time between a VHCOL city and a MCOL exurb. My VHCOL city neighbors / friends all have laptop jobs like me. They all vote like me. They all went to competitive colleges like me. They had to pass through all the same sorting mechanisms in order to afford the VHCOL lifestyle. My MCOL exurb friends & neighbors include building contractors, teachers, professors…

I agree. You want to be intellectually challenged? Hang out with people who aren't exactly like you from time to time.

Not just intellectually but also politically (which I dont find to be particularly intellectual). By being surrounded by "your own" you live in a filter bubble that can only make you more extreme / radical. Basically all your friends vote the same as you but some do it more loudly and obnoxiously.

You miss the fact that regular people on the other side are just normal people with slightly different policy preferences. ie - they might agree climate change is real, but aren't rich enough to profess it as their #1 policy concern.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#258

Post by ANewFormation »

dsign wrote: post #252
Dalewyn wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go…

I'm going in a tangent too here :-) . One can say that atheism (with lower case) is a lack of religion. And then there is the meaning you suggest: Atheism as a belief in refuting god. That one is not a proper religion, but more like an ideology. Or maybe it is a religion in the sense that it can be used as a moral cornerstone. More than playing with words, not believing in god may be one of three things: irrelevant,…

I think the parallel many draw is that atheism is taking a position of certainty on the question of a God. And that certainty is based largely on personal belief as any evidence for such a question will inherently be weak.

To me agnosticism would be more the absence of religion, because the absence of religion doesn't imply any particular opinion on the existence or not of a God. One can believe there might be a God without embracing any religion.

Re: Should more of us be moving to live near friends?

#259

Post by jhardy54 »

Dalewyn wrote: post #246
dsign wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really needs to happen is we need to figure out ways of facilitating friend formation/maintenance in this brave new world of the internet and atheism. We are going to need some new social technologies to really combat this. I wonder how in your opinion atheism enters in the picture? My first guess (of your reference) is that certain religions frighten people into remaining in a marriage they would otherwise no…

This is going on a tangent, but I would like to point out to you that Atheism is itself a religion: It's a belief in no god(s), a belief in refuting god(s). I'm Japanese, we (Japan) consider ourselves Non-Religious when we choose to celebrate newborn life at Shinto Shrines, weddings at Christian Churches, and funerals and graves at Buddhist Temples with no dogmatic attachment to any of them as an institution as we go…

Atheism is not a religion – it’s simply the absence of belief in gods. Religions involve organized systems of practices, rituals, and doctrines, none of which apply to atheism. Not believing in something doesn’t make it a belief system, just like not collecting stamps isn’t a hobby.
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