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California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

latimes.com

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Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#251

Post by WillAdams »

bell-cot wrote: post #238
WillAdams wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Title IX addressed this by requiring some level of equity in funding, at least in theory.

At most , Title IX addressed the "girl's can't make the team" issue here. Where's the equal funding for slow, out-of-shape klutzes? (Actually, I don't know if Title IX addresses co-ed sports. And no matter how co-ed on paper, the rough nature nature of standard football will still result in anything-but-equal gender representation - both on the team, and in those scholarships.)

At that point we are close to Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron".

We need something a bit more equitable, which acknowledges the uniqueness of each student.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#252

Post by imron »

nuancebydefault wrote: post #243
K0balt wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is good for a society and what feels just are often disparate things. But it is not unjust on a human scale that some people are born with lower potential than others. It’s just an unfortunate fact of life. What is just then? To whom is it just to invest 2x the resources into a person that will never likely tinder a significant benefit to society? To whom is it just to -not- invest in people who are particularly…

> invest 2x the resources into a person that will never likely tinder a significant benefit to society? So you would rather have the cleaning lady, the garbage collector, the truck driver,... not got proper read/write/calculate/economics... education and increase their chances of ending on the side where they fall for addiction instead?

I expect better from someone whose user name is nuancebydefault

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#253

Post by RealityVoid »

zozbot234 wrote: post #195
phil21 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing truly progressive programs for the purpose of virtue signaling is a loss for society It's not just a loss for society. It's society-killing. Taking resources away from those who move society forward and spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" is a way your culture dies. Conquerers in the past used this strategy to win massive empires for themselves. It's a ridiculous self-own. This is perha…

> spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" If only. The school system is actually terrible at helping the most disadvantaged and marginalized students. These students would benefit the most from highly structured and directed instructional approaches that often have the pupils memorizing their "lesson" essentially word-for-word and getting prompt, immediate feedback on every question they answer[0] -…

This sounds thoroughly unappealing to gifted students though? I mean, repetition is _a_ tool in the toolset.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#254

Post by cogman10 »

aliasxneo wrote: post #209
cogman10 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I cannot because that is fundamentally not what the parent comment said or the framing that they used. > Meanwhile, societies like USSR and Communist China, that persecuted their geniuses, collapsed their previously great societies. I'm sorry, but that is not how either the USSR or China have operated. If anything, they hyper applied the notion cultivating geniuses. Education in both China and formerly the USSR i…

It seems like you're choosing to selectively interpret things to fit your own argument. > Meanwhile, societies like USSR and Communist China, that persecuted their geniuses, collapsed their previously great societies. They did indeed kill off most of their intelligentsia in the last century. This is clearly what the OP is referencing and is a historical fact. I'm not sure why you decided to take it in a different dir…

Because for neither China nor the USSR was that the main contributor to their national problems. Further, the education system of both are definitely implementations of "let's spend the most money on the smartest people".

In a discussion about the collapse of societies, it doesn't apply. In a discussion about education reform, it does not apply. It is also not an example of the original commentors statement that conquerors have used social spending to collapse their targets.

I would further point out in both the case of the USSR and China's purge of the intelligentsia; it was FAR more about consolidating power in a dictator and far less about trying to set good national policy. In Mao's case in particular, he was frankly just a bit insane.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#255

Post by DiggyJohnson »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #216
hintymad wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about G&T program per se, either. Nor did my country have it when I grew up. I do care about education. I guess my fundamental assumption is that when everyone maximizes their full potential, the outcome will naturally be different. So, pushing students to realize their potential will be against equity, but will be the best way to minimize the equity gap. Now the nuances for us in the US specifically: th…

> The most talented get access to all kinds of free yet prestigious programs and camps, excellent books in local libraries, and professors in colleges. I agree with this part > The least talented are carefully looked after, and they don't necessarily have much pressure to get into a college, and rightly so. This has nothing to do with talent. The poorest in society do receive subsidies (medicaid, food stamps) that th…

Do you make a distinction between a "bad student" and a "disadvantaged student"? Is it ever fair to describe a student as "less talented" than another, in your view?

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#256

Post by csa »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #172
csa wrote: post #10

It’s not just California, but California may be one of the more egregious state neglecters. The push at the state level for policies that focus on equality of outcomes over equality of opportunities will not end well for the gifted and talented communities. Whenever I hear these people talk about their policies, I can’t help but recall Harrison Bergeron. Focusing on equality of outcomes in a society that structurally…

> Focusing on equality of outcomes Is this a thing? I hear conservative people complain about it a lot, but I have no clue what this looks like.

> but I have no clue what this looks like

An earlier version of the CA academic framework (2022?) wanted all students to take algebra in 9th grade, rather than letting some folks start in 8th grade.

Why this matters:

- algebra in 8th grade allows for calculus to be reached by 12th grade by taking just one math class per year.

- conversely, 9th grade algebra means that a student would need to double up in math one year, which means that they have to give up a slot in another HS class in order to make room for the extra math class.

- calculus in high school is one key to get into competitive schools and programs, so this is seen as a desirable goal for academically inclined folks.

The reason this policy was proposed was that the folks in the faster track were not of a similar racial proportion as the entire student population, so it was deemed discriminatory.

The policy solution was to make it much more difficult for folks who aimed to end up in 12th grade calculus to do so.

Note that there was no broad support of this parents of the kids in the accelerated math program or by parents of those who weren’t.

This was a policy that was created by a group of so-called progressives who were happy to lower the overall group achievement level by limiting access in order to manufacture “equality” in the enrollment numbers (the outcome).

There was basically a revolt, and this become a policy suggestion rather than a requirement, but California made that change under duress rather than agreeing with the dissenters.

Note that this type of thinking is very common and very popular in the education academic/“intellectual” circles. They assume that people will eventually come around to their way of thinking. Imho, they are completely out of touch with (and largely have disdain for) “normal” people.

Is this a clear example without any conservative baggage?

Edit - here is an article that discusses this topic:

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/california-adopts-c...

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#257

Post by HDThoreaun »

cogman10 wrote: post #189
gowld wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't imagine interpreting the parent comment for its clear face value -- that supporting outlier high achievers helps everyone in society? The inventor of a vaccine or a microchip or a sculpture doesn't hoard the invention for themself. Meanwhile, societies like USSR and Communist China, that persecuted their geniuses, collapsed their previously great societies.

No, I cannot because that is fundamentally not what the parent comment said or the framing that they used. > Meanwhile, societies like USSR and Communist China, that persecuted their geniuses, collapsed their previously great societies. I'm sorry, but that is not how either the USSR or China have operated. If anything, they hyper applied the notion cultivating geniuses. Education in both China and formerly the USSR i…

The cultural revolution began by lynching all the teachers and kicking the bureaucrats out of the cities. Stalin did much of the same. It was a horrible strategy which is why they came up with the new ones.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#258

Post by zozbot234 »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #235
zozbot234 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> spending them on those who are unlikely to "pay it back" If only. The school system is actually terrible at helping the most disadvantaged and marginalized students. These students would benefit the most from highly structured and directed instructional approaches that often have the pupils memorizing their "lesson" essentially word-for-word and getting prompt, immediate feedback on every question they answer[0] -…

Respectfully I'm not seeing how your point is surprising at all. Are you just saying that when we do spend money on disadvantaged (whatever word is correct for "opposite of gifted") it isn't effective?

I'm just saying that when the institutional schooling system seems to "spend money on the disadvantaged" it's merely pretending to help the disadvantaged and marginalized, while actively rejecting the approaches that, at least as judged by readily available evidence, would likely help these students the most, and probably close at least some of the gap in outcomes.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#259

Post by smurda »

I was in GATE in a California school district in the 90’s. In our town of 100k people, 30 of us were put in a GATE classroom for grades 3-6.

The best part about the program was being around other precocious peers. I think many of us would have been described as misfits - clever enough to sit at the adults table but clearly not a fit there.

30 years later, I have deeper relationships with those 30 people than my high school or college friends.

Re: California's most neglected group of students: the gifted ones

#260

Post by treis »

couchdb_ouchdb wrote: post #236
frmersdog wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are you certain that she's gifted?

In Seattle, there's actually a test you can take to get you into the "HCC" program which is the gifted program in Seattle Public Schools. Seattle, however, has been trying (successfully) for years to dismantle it. So even if you pass the test, there's not very many places that you can go to get these services.

Unrelated but I'd love to hear the story behind your user name.
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