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A Dust Over India

postmasculine.com

251–260 of 325 posts

Re: A Dust Over India

#251
post #240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually like your illuminating comments about India, but here I think emotion got the better of you. There is no such sinister ploy or conspiracy (English or otherwise) going on here and neither is it unfair to claim that India has existed as many smaller kingdoms in its historical trajectory.

>>There is no such sinister ploy or conspiracy (English or otherwise) going on here and neither is it unfair to claim that India has existed as many smaller kingdoms in its historical trajectory. I am not claiming it either. But the British didn't come here to unite us and do the 'greater good' as often claimed. Was India made up of smaller states, yes it was. But you need to study the geographical boundaries of Main…

I would say calm down, no one here is disagreeing with you, or with the history or the geography of India, nor is anyone here claiming the opposite of any of those things that you are worked up about.

You probably read too much into cstross's comments, maybe you didn't, but your comment reads like you are very angry about what he said and are admonishing him/us for getting India's history wrong and giving us a history lesson.

Re: A Dust Over India

#252
post #100

It is hard to give a well rounded response to the post and yet keep it short. So I will not even try. A lot has been written about India, so people who want to know more will dig deep on their own, whereas many will be happy with poverty porn . One thing that I do want to mention is that India is a very high variance country. For almost any statement one makes, there will be a un-ignorable part of the country where t…

> If you are a girl from the north-east, India's capital is not a friendly place.

Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe for north-eastern folks. At best, they deal with implicit and explicit harassment; at worse, violence and molestation. And though the girls do have it worse, the guys don't have it much better either.

> On the other hand visit Chennai, Mumbai, Pune (by no means an exhaustive list) nobody will give it a second thought if an unattended girl has to travel in the wee hours of the night, even if wearing a mini fortune in jewelery.

I can vouch for Chennai giving second, third, and 1000th thought if a girl happens to travel after 10, let alone wee hours(jewelry irrelevant most of the times).

> In the south, (barring Karnataka) that is certainly not the norm.

What cities and what bribes are we talking about? I am personally guilty of bribing the traffic police, passport verification constable and TTE(train ticket examiner) in Chennai. I have friends who have bribed for driving pitch black drunk(I don't drive drunk and don't endorse it).

Re: A Dust Over India

#253
post #252
post #100

It is hard to give a well rounded response to the post and yet keep it short. So I will not even try. A lot has been written about India, so people who want to know more will dig deep on their own, whereas many will be happy with poverty porn . One thing that I do want to mention is that India is a very high variance country. For almost any statement one makes, there will be a un-ignorable part of the country where t…

> If you are a girl from the north-east, India's capital is not a friendly place. Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe for north-eastern folks. At best, they deal with implicit and explicit harassment; at worse, violence and molestation. And though the girls do have it worse, the guys don't have it much better either. > On the other hand visit Chennai, Mumbai, Pune (by no means an exhaustive list) nobody…

The question is not whether you bribed or not but whether you absolutely had to. In certain parts of India, even if you are a law abiding citizen it is hard to live without giving bribes, in some others, if you stay within the law you are not messed with. Having stayed in Chennai and beyond, I can vouch that it can get a lot worse than Chennai. A lot.

> Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe

If you are talking physical safety here that is patently false. Yes its never quite as comfortable as home. You would be stared at, but there are many parts in India where no one will grope you in broad daylight in public and not a sneaky surreptitious "feel". Small mercies. Delhi is not that place.

Re: A Dust Over India

#254
post #243
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) You still don't get it. I am not trying to pick any place. Maybe Detroit has improved. Good for you, my sister, the USA and this world. But you may still warn your tourist friend of certain places in other American cities , right? An uninformed tourist will be shocked if he/she visit such places just like India. b) I didn't down vote any of your post. Hence, these replies.

In all fairness, what you call the poorest in US would actually qualify to be pretty rich people here in India.

Agreed.

I am talking about expectations and exceptions. In USA an uninformed tourist won't expect such places. In Somalia, a person won't expect a super friendly neighborhood with Audis and BMWs roaming around.

Re: A Dust Over India

#255
I spent three weeks in India last year teaching in a slum school, and this is the most candid and accurate description of the country I've read yet. Well done. I think some people are afraid to really be honest at the risk of being politically incorrect, and I appreciate the author's honesty.

I had the same reaction the OP did when I saw so many living side-by-side with the impoverished - especially children - and being so callused. But the reality is that poverty is everywhere in India, and because it's a way of live, people simply adjust.

But it doesn't make it any less sad. It's sad to see full-grown, gaunt men struggling to pedal their rickshaw in flip-flops over washboard roads for pennies. But it's devastating seeing small children who are really, truly famished.

We would buy food for hungry children whenever we could, and often they would stare at us blankly at first. They'd accept the food, but would have no reaction. I figured they simply didn't appreciate it or couldn't muster a reaction.

But then I started watching them after we left. And after they realized they weren't being had - and we really were giving them food with no strings attached - they were transformed. I looked back at one begging child to see him absolutely gleeful, grinning from ear to ear. Another child who I gave some candy and bit of money ran after our departing rickshaw - while holding his 1 year old sister - waving, smiling and dancing with joy. It almost most made me cry.

But I didn't cry, not until the night before we left. After three weeks in India, I was ready to to leave. But at the same time, I felt almost guilty that I was able to return to such a country of prosperity and wealth while the children I'd taught would simply stay behind. And while my wife and I had worked our ass off for 2 weeks to improve the school, the curriculum and the educational prospects for the kids, ultimately our effort wasn't going to move the needle, and few if any would ever leave the slums. They had almost no shot at making a life for themselves. With all these emotions stirring in my mind, my wife held me as I cried.

If you're living in the U.S. or any Western country, you are incredibly blessed / lucky. Don't take it for granted. If you haven't been to India, it's a trip that will forever change your perspective. Before leaving for India, I simply lived in a home. But I returned with the knowledge that I live in a luxurious castle.

Re: A Dust Over India

#256

The mistake the author made is that he lived in India for three weeks. Had he stayed for six months or a year, he'd have been able to figure out what makes India tick - India is the very embodiment of clever innovation to survive - it will ask you very tough questions and it will compel you to innovate, often rapidly, just in order to survive - not even succeed. This, in India, is known as "jugaad". He missed the "ju…

> He missed the "jugaad" all around him - people, in their struggle for survival, do all sorts of things. What a colossal waste of human resources. Imagine if all those poor people were instead lifted up to the middle class so that they wouldn't have to focus on surviving each day, and could put that "jugaad" to something actually useful - research, science, arts, creating things and doing work that benefits others a…

Yes , that is a good idea . Tell me which switch to flip...

Re: A Dust Over India

#257
post #240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually like your illuminating comments about India, but here I think emotion got the better of you. There is no such sinister ploy or conspiracy (English or otherwise) going on here and neither is it unfair to claim that India has existed as many smaller kingdoms in its historical trajectory.

>>There is no such sinister ploy or conspiracy (English or otherwise) going on here and neither is it unfair to claim that India has existed as many smaller kingdoms in its historical trajectory. I am not claiming it either. But the British didn't come here to unite us and do the 'greater good' as often claimed. Was India made up of smaller states, yes it was. But you need to study the geographical boundaries of Main…

> Mughals came, captured, and stayed here and contributed a lot

They came as Central Asians (Uzbek?), but stayed on and became Indians.

> British just belong to Ghazni kind of invaders who went back

Yes, but they did stick around for about 200 years. Quite a lot of the British who came to India stayed back and became Indians. With the British it was somewhere between Ghazni and the Mughals.

Re: A Dust Over India

#258
post #253
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a girl from the north-east, India's capital is not a friendly place. Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe for north-eastern folks. At best, they deal with implicit and explicit harassment; at worse, violence and molestation. And though the girls do have it worse, the guys don't have it much better either. > On the other hand visit Chennai, Mumbai, Pune (by no means an exhaustive list) nobody…

The question is not whether you bribed or not but whether you absolutely had to. In certain parts of India, even if you are a law abiding citizen it is hard to live without giving bribes, in some others, if you stay within the law you are not messed with. Having stayed in Chennai and beyond, I can vouch that it can get a lot worse than Chennai. A lot. > Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe If you are tal…

> Having stayed in Chennai and beyond, I can vouch that it can get a lot worse than Chennai.

Yes, it does get worse than Chennai. Bullock cart might be the fastest vehicle in your village, but that isn't a compliment for the cart or the village. I don't see how Chennai, the fastest bullock cart in India, is supposed to be cheered.

I can't comment about 'you absolutely had to' scenarios. I was never in one, in Chennai or elsewhere.

> If you are talking physical safety here that is patently false. Yes its never quite as comfortable as home.

I said "at best, they are implicitly and explicitly harassed; at worse, they are subjected to violence and molestation." Physical safety isn't the only thing that matters, and not quite comfortable as home isn't the same as being harassed and discriminated.

I find most of India xenophobic to varying degree. I found Chennai orthodox and xenophobic(frequently subjected to this is not tamil nadu culture and you north indians don't understand). I will be more comfortable in Delhi, not because Delhi is any better, but just because I will blend - someone who is visibly different will have a different experience. I find Kolkata the most tolerant city among the places I have been to - it hasn't seen any major racial or religious incident in long, long time.

Re: A Dust Over India

#259

I watched the endless poverty scroll by like a demented video game. I had an overwhelming urge to stop at an ATM and withdraw 25,000 Rupees and start handing money out to people at random. "Nothing should be given free. Anything that is given free has no value. " - Padma Venkataraman In May of this year, I spent time in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. The exchange rate during my travels was roughly 53 Rupees : 1 US Dollar.…

Giving money to a beggar provides a sense of having done something. Even when it's actually not helpful it allows the donor to carry on with their lives with the undeserved feeling of having done something useful.

Re: A Dust Over India

#260
post #258
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is not whether you bribed or not but whether you absolutely had to. In certain parts of India, even if you are a law abiding citizen it is hard to live without giving bribes, in some others, if you stay within the law you are not messed with. Having stayed in Chennai and beyond, I can vouch that it can get a lot worse than Chennai. A lot. > Barring north-east, there aren't many places safe If you are tal…

> Having stayed in Chennai and beyond, I can vouch that it can get a lot worse than Chennai. Yes, it does get worse than Chennai. Bullock cart might be the fastest vehicle in your village, but that isn't a compliment for the cart or the village. I don't see how Chennai, the fastest bullock cart in India, is supposed to be cheered. I can't comment about 'you absolutely had to' scenarios. I was never in one, in Chennai…

> I find Kolkata the most tolerant city among the places I have been to - it hasn't seen any major racial or religious incident in long, long time. - it hasn't seen any major racial or religious incident in long, long time.

Hasnt seen much development either, this comes from a Kolkatan here. On the other hand things are affordable, most people use public transport if they are traveling say less than 10 km.

But its a bit strange 'cause for me that place has been Chennai. Culturally conservative yes, (same is true for Kolkata more or less) but not in an imposing way. It is more of the you dont bother me I wont bother you variety, atleast in my experience. It is not a terribly interesting place, but definitely liveable and you are likely to find a job in the city.

The funny part is that contrary to what many hindi speakers believe, they do not speak hindi, not out of malice, but because they are genuinely afraid that they will be made fun of. The autowallahs are mostly swindlers let lose though. In most parts people add a fudge to the fare, here, they multiply !

> and not quite comfortable as home isn't the same as being harassed and discriminated.

That was a deliberate understatement. Having spent a part of my life in the nort-east and having received such warmth and affection there, it really makes me mad when "mainstream" India treats them bad. And Delhi for some reason I have found to be particularly bad. Not sure why.

@irahul: Indeed I misunderstood. I am either getting slow or its getting late. probably both. Even in Delhi an autowallah will add say 10% to the fare if they sense you are not from around here. No big deal hapens in many places. But, Jesus! in Chennai they multiply by factors of [1 - 3] somtimes \infty (thats when they straight refuse) or worse drop you off at a wrong place and refuse to go further.

> People often try to shove their culture down your throats, and feel smug while doing so.

Heh! I thought that was a distinctly Kolkata trait.

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