So thieves broke into your storage unit again • Hacker News Board

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#251

Post by tshaddox » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:16 PM UTC

jart wrote: post #244

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of "toc" is used to claim that you must have regulation otherwise you get a tragedy. The historical reality is that we have almost always had regulation, and tragedies happen anyway because the regulatory process is not robust enough in the face of greed and selfishness.

TOC is used to claim that spaces should be owned. Bureaucrats will only protect a space insofar as it allows them to get their palms greased before leaving office. An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future.

Generally the textbook commons are resources which are not easily divided up into private ownership, like large bodies of water that feed a large number of people via fishing. Of course in some cases new technology can enable privatization of previous commons.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#252

Post by tshaddox » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:20 PM UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #195

tshaddox wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The paradox is that the monthly cost of a unit will quickly exceed the value of whatever is stored there unless the items have sentimental value or are very expensive. This is a tough one to manage psychologically, although it’s almost certainly also true of nearly anything you are storing in your own home. The difference of course is that home space is bundled inflexibly—you usually don’t have the option of paying…

That's why it isn't true of your home. The cost of storing an item in your home (assuming you didn't buy a bigger house just to store the thing) is 0.

My point was that you could try to think of your storage unit as if the size and monthly cost of your home was more flexible, i.e. you can just pay 2% per month for 2% more space.

When you chose your house there were presumably several options with different amounts of storage space at different price points. You could just treat the addition of a storage unit as increased granularity between those housing options.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#253

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:22 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #236

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your take on "toc" is a relatively new one. When Hardin first wrote about it, the message was (and was for some decades after it) that holding resources in common is doomed to failure and that is why private ownership/control of them is a good idea. Even with your view, there's a subtle shift involved in talking about it as an issue of whether or not resources are properly managed or not, because the question is, qui…

> Your take on "toc" is a relatively new one. I don't think so. I'm just regurgitating what I learned in political science classes decades ago, and what the mainstream understanding still is today in the general media. And what you're omitting is that while yes, the solution from the point of view of the political right is privatization, the solution from the point of view of the political left has always been more a…

What you're omitting is that the solutions to ToC style problems already existed throughout time and space until they were ignored/destroyed/captured by selfishness and greed.

Think about it: if I set you the challenge of "come up with a regulation model for this fishery" the nature of your solutions will be fundamentally different than if I set you the challenge of "prevent selfishness and greed from overriding the cultural, social and historical patterns for this resource use". Depending on your own particular political outlook, it is possible that given the first problem you would still focus more on the type of problem described in the second but that's not inevitable at all.

> There are no structures and never were.

Chinese overfishing ... when I look this up, the most common word associated with it is "illegal". Perhaps you mean the overfishing they carried out in their own waters before increasing (and now decreasing) the size of their distant fishing fleet(s).

> But you're claiming that people in country #5 are "willfully ignoring the social structures in place" and that's false.

In reading up a bit more about this (with China being country #5), I come across articles with titles like "China’s IUU Fishing Fleet: ariah of the World’s Oceans". So I don't think it's false at all.

> But you're ignoring it's also a justification for regulation and cooperation.

That's not an unfair point, but what I'm really getting at (mostly based on Ostrum's work) is that regulation and cooperation have always existed historically, and telling the story of ToC-style problems as if they haven't bends the solutions in ways that do not reflect the history.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#254

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:29 PM UTC

jart wrote: post #243

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a periodic public service announcement that there is not, and never has been "a tragedy of the commons situation". Even the author of the concept, Garret Hardin, has acknowledged that he made mistakes in his understanding and research. Resources held in common have historically been subject to significant control via social, civic and legalistic processes. What is typically referred to as "a tragedy of the co…

I saw what that type of community management looks like at Occupy Wall Street. No thank you. Yes, it was people like Bloomberg who were scheming to bus criminals into the park. But if that weakness hadn't existed he would have never been able to exploit it.

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of community managed resources throughout time and space that are more long lasting and more positive than Occupy.

Just in the part of the world where I live, but inherited from the Arabic world via Spain, are the acequias of New Mexico. Contrary to US law, they hold water to be a communical resource, and are managed at the community level, typically with an individual elected to be the "majordomo" who make decisions about allocations but is constantly subject to input from and being overridden by the community itself. When acequias "go wrong" (i.e. there are water shortages), it is typically caused by some combination of:

1. an actual water shortage

2. poor decisions on the part of the majordomo

3. someone stealing from the system

What it almost never is: a "tragedy of the commons" as described by Hardin et al.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#255

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:32 PM UTC

jart wrote: post #244

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of "toc" is used to claim that you must have regulation otherwise you get a tragedy. The historical reality is that we have almost always had regulation, and tragedies happen anyway because the regulatory process is not robust enough in the face of greed and selfishness.

TOC is used to claim that spaces should be owned. Bureaucrats will only protect a space insofar as it allows them to get their palms greased before leaving office. An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future.

> An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future

This is absolutely not reflected in the history of resource extraction in the United States. Time and time again, companies have become owners, begged to be trusted because their interests are "aligned", only to destroy the resource, and frequently the communities around it, and then move on.

The version of game theory you're imagining an owner is playing (unbounded, repeated interactions) is not the version played by the companies that have taken ownership of so many resources on our planet.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#256

Post by 8note » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:36 PM UTC

AStonesThrow wrote: post #228

snovv_crash wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like trains in your area need to have better security and ticket checkers.

Those workers couldn't maintain an urban apartment near transit, so they are all homeless and too busy with their clinic appointments to work.

"Couldn't maintain" is a weird description of "renting urban apartments as Airbnb's is more profitable for the landlords"

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#257

Post by hotspot_one » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #104

The indifference of this by everyone involved is infuriating. This criminal activity is treated as natural as rain, just something us 98% of people have to endure. It's important to remember that accepting crime, especially low level crime like this is a policy choice. It's the same people doing the same crimes over and over. They have run ins with the law and they just get let go to continue terrorizing the rest of…

> the number of state prisoners that have had 15 or more prior arrests is over 26%

So one reading of this statistic is "incarcerating people turns them into criminals"

which suggests that maybe the better way is something else than locking people up and giving them a black mark which prevents them ever getting a viable job?

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#258

Post by jart » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #255

jart wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TOC is used to claim that spaces should be owned. Bureaucrats will only protect a space insofar as it allows them to get their palms greased before leaving office. An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future.

> An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future This is absolutely not reflected in the history of resource extraction in the United States. Time and time again, companies have become owners, begged to be trusted because their interests are "aligned", only to destroy the resource, and frequently the communities around it, and then move on. The version of game theory…

Could you give me three examples of what you're talking about? Are you saying like someone owns a coal mine and destroys the coal because they dug it up and sold it? Or do you mean more like they blew up the mountain to get the coal, to save money, so now the mountainside is less picturesque?

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#259

Post by 8note » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:48 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #115

bko wrote: post #104

The indifference of this by everyone involved is infuriating. This criminal activity is treated as natural as rain, just something us 98% of people have to endure. It's important to remember that accepting crime, especially low level crime like this is a policy choice. It's the same people doing the same crimes over and over. They have run ins with the law and they just get let go to continue terrorizing the rest of…

The US already incarcerates vastly more people than most comparable nations. And yet this level of incarceration does not seem to have had the effect you want. It seems that you imagine that the crime is somehow intrinsic to the current group of people committing it, and that by removing them from society, their behavior would not recur. While there are arguments for this sort of thing, it is also based on a wilfull…

The US incarcerates lots of people, but how many are imprisoned for things that aren't crimes? You could drop all the folks imprisoned for stuff like driving while black, and make space for organized theft rings

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#260

Post by MichaelZuo » Sun, Oct 06, 2024, 10:53 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #253

crazygringo wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your take on "toc" is a relatively new one. I don't think so. I'm just regurgitating what I learned in political science classes decades ago, and what the mainstream understanding still is today in the general media. And what you're omitting is that while yes, the solution from the point of view of the political right is privatization, the solution from the point of view of the political left has always been more a…

What you're omitting is that the solutions to ToC style problems already existed throughout time and space until they were ignored/destroyed/captured by selfishness and greed . Think about it: if I set you the challenge of "come up with a regulation model for this fishery" the nature of your solutions will be fundamentally different than if I set you the challenge of "prevent selfishness and greed from overriding the…

Why do they qualify as ‘solutions’ in the first place, if the ‘solution’ cannot withstand some percentage of people pursuing self interest above all else? (Which has always been the case to varying degrees since the first organized polities arose ~5k to ~10k years ago)

It sounds more like a hodgepodge of brittle norms.