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The Engineering of Landfills

practical.engineering

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Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#251

Post by throwaway2037 »

sofixa wrote: post #244
acec wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waste is inherently problematic, regardless of how we manage it. While burning plastic for energy might seem like a solution, it's not ideal. We can generate clean electricity through other means that are cheaper and less polluting. Burning waste still releases harmful toxins into the environment and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions – even if it reduces landfill methane, which is a potent contributor to climat…

> Burning waste still releases harmful toxins into the environment and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions – even if it reduces landfill methane, which is a potent contributor to climate change This is not axiomatic. The gases from the incineration can be put into productive use (cf. Vienna heating and providing hot water off of their incinerator), and the harmful stuff can be filtered (cf. Vienna where the incin…

Tokyo also has many, many urban incinerators.

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#252

Post by aziaziazi »

sofixa wrote: post #246
immibis wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E.g. the bottles we sent them for "recycling"

Not only. If you go to a developing country in Asia, more likely than not you'll see that locals have no issues throwing thrash everywhere in nature because they're not conscient of the problems it causes.

True, but for now Asia is far from the biggest consumer.

https://tappwater.co/blogs/blog/how-many-people-consume-bott....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/505794/cds-per-capita-co...

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#253

Post by throwaway2037 »

scoofy wrote: post #166
toomuchtodo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, you are generating some greenhouse gasses in the process, which is a trade off to ensure immediate waste destruction. To note, you will have to flare methane from the landfill in perpetuity when landfilled. If one is so inclined, internalize the cost of direct air carbon capture into the cost of waste disposal for those emissions. https://www.epa.gov/lmop/basic-information-about-landfill-ga... > Municipal…

While I might be wrong, I seriously doubt the plastics creating the methane emissions you are referring to. That is almost certainly the organic matter. I have no idea how you think plasma gasification -- requiring extreme amounts of energy -- is in any way helpful to our current environmental concerns. Unless we somehow magically start relying on 100% renewables, it seems like landfills are far-and-away the best way…

First, I agree about methane source is organic matter, not plastics. I think OP would agree.

    > it seems like landfills are far-and-away the best way to go until we are able to grapple with climate change.
If this is true, why do so many different, highly developed nations use garbage incineration for large parts of their waste?

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#254

Post by throwaway2037 »

cogman10 wrote: post #133
toomuchtodo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, you are generating some greenhouse gasses in the process, which is a trade off to ensure immediate waste destruction. To note, you will have to flare methane from the landfill in perpetuity when landfilled. If one is so inclined, internalize the cost of direct air carbon capture into the cost of waste disposal for those emissions. https://www.epa.gov/lmop/basic-information-about-landfill-ga... > Municipal…

Point taken. Though I do wonder how much of the methane released is from plastic decomposition and how much of it is from food/biomaterial decomposition. I'd naively assume the primary emission would come from readily decomposable materials and that most plastics would remain fairly stable for a lot longer than yesterday's half eaten hamburger.

    > plastic decomposition
As I understand, most plastic is type 1 and 2 (PET bottles and such), and it never decomposes (on any reasonable human timeframe).

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#255

Post by throwaway2037 »

_2d30 wrote: post #47
mikojan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single truck requires more energy to operate in a year.

A single truck requires more energy to operate in a year than 70k homes do!? I find this extremely difficult to believe. As far as I can tell, the EIA [1] suggests the average home uses 10,791 kWh a year. A gallon of gasoline contains ~33.7 kWh of energy per the EPA/Wikipedia [2]. This would mean that a single truck would be burning 70,000 * 10,791 / 33.7 = 22,414,540 gallons of gasoline a year or 61,409 gallons a da…

This has got to be one of the greatest retorts I have ever read on HN. Hat tip to you.

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#256

Post by foobarbaz33 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #250
scoofy wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely use landfills, especially with plastic waste, as shibboleth to know whether I'm talking to somebody who is an environmentalist or somebody who is an "environmentalist." Anyone who thinks recycling plastic is some sort of normative good because "waste is bad" clearly hasn't put any thought into what environmental issues need to be focused on right now.

Is recycling plastic bad? What environmental issues need to be focused on right now?

Much plastic recycling is a sham.

1st world business pays 3rd world business to take their plastic for "recycling" (mandatory air quotes). The 1st world gets credit for being a responsible environmentalist. The 3rd world business then dumps the plastic in a river or other convenient but totally not enviro-friendly dumping spot.

It's sort of an open conspiracy at this point. Putting your plastic in the trash may be better for the environment overall.

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#257

Post by jl6 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #250
scoofy wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely use landfills, especially with plastic waste, as shibboleth to know whether I'm talking to somebody who is an environmentalist or somebody who is an "environmentalist." Anyone who thinks recycling plastic is some sort of normative good because "waste is bad" clearly hasn't put any thought into what environmental issues need to be focused on right now.

Is recycling plastic bad? What environmental issues need to be focused on right now?

“Recycling” sometimes (often) includes burning it in waste-to-energy incinerators, which emit CO2 and other pollutants just as if the original oil had been burned directly instead of taking a detour via a plastic product. It would be better to put waste plastic in a carbon storage device, a.k.a. a landfill. At least that way we are caching a little bit of easy-access fuel to help re-bootstrap civilization in case of global catastrophe.

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#258

Post by mrmlz »

Sammi wrote: post #241
kortilla wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False choice. Don’t burn anything.

How is peat a false alternative? It is literally what Swedes would burn if they didn't burn their waste. There exists no practical alternative atm. Sure it's worth working towards another alternative, but we also need to not freeze right now.

I mean if "heat" is the primary product burning this is kind of nifty. And producing electricity at the same time is a bonus. Letting wood etc. rot releases CO2 as well.

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#259

Post by lmpdev »

foobarbaz33 wrote: post #256
throwaway2037 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is recycling plastic bad? What environmental issues need to be focused on right now?

Much plastic recycling is a sham. 1st world business pays 3rd world business to take their plastic for "recycling" (mandatory air quotes). The 1st world gets credit for being a responsible environmentalist. The 3rd world business then dumps the plastic in a river or other convenient but totally not enviro-friendly dumping spot. It's sort of an open conspiracy at this point. Putting your plastic in the trash may be be…

To self-checkout at my local grocery store, I have to clear a reminder that any soft plastic recycled through the store over the last x years was in fact not recycled and stockpiled around Australia in warehouses “waiting” for it to become economically feasible (it never did)

REDcycle (effectively Australia’s lone large-scale soft plastic recycling effort) folded and it was a big brouhaha

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/jan/30/redcy...

Re: The Engineering of Landfills

#260

Post by bittercynic »

bko wrote: post #87
barbazoo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish more environmentalists would be excited about engineering solving environmental ills and relied less on knee-jerk reactions. Are many ... not? Seems like a weird complaint, I haven't encountered an "environmentalist" (whatever that even is) that is against landfills in general or the engineering of it. I'd rather we didn't produce as much garbage as we are and I hate that our city makes me wrap my garbage in…

Search google news "environmentalist landfill" and find me one article praising the ingenuity of landfills https://news.google.com/search?q=environmentalist+landfills&... Here's one from 3 days ago. Garbage Lasagna’: Dumps Are a Big Driver of Warming, Study Says Don't gaslight me and tell me environmentalists applaud all solutions to environmental issues equally. They have their own solutions, and activists often for…

I think the search results are not representative of what actual humans think.

I guess I consider myself an environmentalist, in that it's a relatively high priority to me to avoid causing unnecessary environmental destruction. I regularly take some effort to dispose of hazardous waste appropriately, etc, but I normally don't go around announcing my environmental priorities. It's not that I don't care, it's just that talking about it is usually not much fun, and is unlikely to help anything.

I think my attitude on the matter is pretty common in my area.

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