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In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

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Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#251
post #139
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree, and your points about Chinese tools are particularly incisive. As an aside, but I think relevant and you might find it interesting: A decade or so I discovered Oberon, the last masterwork of the great genius of programming languages Niklaus "Bucky" Wirth. A complete OS, UI and compiler, in about four and a half thousand lines of code. I have it running in various forms. I introduced it to the Squeak Sma…

> That is how I found Oberon. They told me such a thing did not and could not exist. Long ago: https://blackbox.oberon.org/ https://github.com/excelsior-oss/xds

Thanks for the links!

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt, if you're working in AutoCAD, there's no command line that you need to understand first. But then again, if you're working in AutoCAD, you'd never say "I used to work in CLI only, now I use GUIs more and more". Clearly they meant GUIs that have CLIs behind, or at least CLI alternatives.

AutoCAD is an unlucky choice of example here, because it's one of the few GUI drawing tools that actually does have a command line behind it that you have to understand sometimes! Look up a screenshot of AutoCAD and you can see the command prompt at the bottom of the window. And if you were using AutoCAD in the 80's you can say exactly that you used to use the CLI only!

CorelDraw? Word? Audacity?

Or maybe it will turn out that all GUI software has command line somewhere inside. I think my original point stands even better in that case.

Yay for hair-splitting, I guess.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#253
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you have some interesting links to share I'll skim them with pleasure. I do not advise skimming. I've been a full-time tech journalist for 2 & a half years now (I was in the 1990s as well but the 21st century is very different) and I find the majority of readers who angrily disagree with my articles did not in fact understand the article because they tried to skim it and they didn't get the gist. (In a previous…

> I do not advise skimming That's very right, but modern life is complicated so accurately study something demand much time, quickly see the concepts might helps and well, the concept of textual-UI is definitively not alien to me, since my desktop is EXWM, with almost all my digital life in org-mode, org-roam-managed notes, it's still very different than Oberon (or Plan 9) desktop but the textual concept and org-mode…

I really do feel your pain. ;-)

No, it's not viable as a general-purpose OS these days. At one time it was and was deployed to non-technical staff inside ETH.

The last development in the line, not from Wirth himself, has a zooming GUI, resizable overlapping windows, SMP, a TCP/IP stack, an email client and a very basic HTTP only web browser. It is closer than you might expect.

I believe the core OS is on the order of 8000 LOC.

You may enjoy my FOSDEM talks if you're interested in this kind of thing.

I did one involving rebooting the local OS stack based on Oberon and Smalltalk, or maybe Newspeak:

https://archive.fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/new_type_of_c...

I turned it into an article recently:

https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/26/starting_over_rebooti...

And this year a more Linux centric one based around 9front:

https://fosdem.org/2024/schedule/event/fosdem-2024-3095-one-...

That became an article series:

https://www.theregister.com/Tag/One%20Way%20Forward/

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your trailing question is a hypothetical but to answer: Screenshots along with text, then use Microsoft Paint to mark up the screen shots. For example, circling the appropriate menu option in a thick red line. Sadly, I do not know how to graphically convey the double-click operation. Its a time consuming and error prone process, best used if the buggy GUI application is abandonware. Otherwise, the new version…

You raise a good point about GUIs changing over time. Obviously, CLIs can change, but that happens less often and is usually in response to a poorly thought out first attempt at providing functionality (or when additional functionality is bolted on).

Since CLIs are used in scripts/automation there's much more pressure for them not to change. Essentially, they become an API so breaking changes are a big deal. GUIs, on the other hand, are very difficult to automate so they can't be used in that way even if people wanted.

As an aside, I think a great foundation for a GUI application is a "server" API that the GUI interacts with. You can automate a lot of testing this way and you can give power users the ability to automate workflows. Web apps are already built this way, but if you're making a standalone app you even have the privilege of making a very chatty API, which makes testing even easier.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas Linux never stopped coming up with new ideas, but doesn't have the manpower to implement them

systemd! (Currently struggling with the way systemd inserts itself into the DNS query chain and then botches things.)

The how-hard-can-it-be-and-who-cares-anyway approach to replacing basic system components. Love it.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#256
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. Make it 20 years.

Just got a Windows 11 machine. Had to, to run Solidworks. Have it next to a new M3 iMac. They’re all configured with the same apps. Despite not having used Windows in 10 years, these machines behave identically. But Windows 11 is snappier. And you can actually find things that you don’t know where they are! I was amazed.

With all the ideological hate against Microsoft/Windows (even among its long-term users it seems) everybody seems to miss the part where Windows 11 is actually pretty good and I would say in some ways actually superior to macOS nowadays, especially with PowerToys.

For starter, it is much less annoying from a security/notification standpoint, you can tell it to fuck off and let you do your things if you know what you are doing.

macOS isn't too bad yet but is clearly lagging behind, Apple is unwillingly to meaningfully improve some parts and seems to refuse to sherlock some apps because it clearly goes against their business interests. They make more money earning the commission on additional software sales from the App Store, a clear conflict of interest. They got complacent just like Valve with all the money from running it's marketplace.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#257
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never understand the sentiment that macOS has been “dumbed down.” It’s a zsh shell with BSD utils. 99% of my shell setup/tools on Linux just work on macOS. I can easily install the gnu utils if I want 99.9% similarity. I very happily jump between macOS and Linux, and while the desktop experience is always potentially the best on Linux (IMO nothing compares to hyprland), in practice macOS feels like the most po…

You're not a typical Mac OS user. The typical users I know do not know how to use finder, let alone shell commands, to navigate file system. Personally I have no issues developing in either Mac, Linux or Windows because I'm advanced level. But for the same reason, I prefer Linux or even Windows because those provide more freedom to the developer.

You are getting downvoted by the fanboys but this is exactly my experience too. There is a type of macOS users that are experts (in technology in general) but those are by far the minority (and it is shrinking).

For the most part the macOS user is of the religious zealots' type and they barely know how to do the basics, far worse than you average seasoned windows user, even though in principle macOS should be easier to handle (in practice it's not exactly true but still...).

People here who seemed to think otherwise really live in the reality distortion field and it seems to be linked to the mythical Silicon Valley "hacker". At first, I drank the kool-aid on that definition but it actually seems pretty disrespectful for "real" hacker; but whatever, I guess.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#258
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With each new version it has become increasingly hostile to installing new software, particularly open-source software that hasn't been "signed" by a commercial developer, throwing up huge warning windows suggesting that anyone daring to run such stuff is taking a huge risk. And many of the standard UNIX locations have become locked down making it impossible to install stuff there. It's clear that Apple would like to…

I don’t understand this sort of comment. The warning windows aren’t “huge”. In practice is clicking through the dialog any more cumbersome than typing sudo and entering your password? In reality is the dialog any less appropriate for the average Linux desktop user? Is locking down the System folder any more problematic than app armor, and any less useful for system integrity? Putting everything from brew under /opt f…

You are switching the goalpost. Not only are there some "security" features that you can't disable and are of dubious actual usefulness like the system partition but they make it much harder to actually hack around the system and modify stuff as you see fit. It has also complexified the installation use of a range of software that is more annoying than it should be.

The openness and freedom to modify like an open UNIX was a major selling point, losing all that for "security" features that mostly appeal to the corporate are not great. Those features also need to be proven useful because as far as I'm concerned, it's all theory, in practice I think they are irrelevant.

The notification system is as annoying and dumb as in iOS and the nonstop "security" notification and password prompt is just a way to sell you on the biometrics usefulness; which Apple, like big morons they are, didn't implement in a FaceID way, in the place where it made the most sense to begin with: laptops/desktops. Oh, but they have a "nice", totally not useless notch.

Many of the modern Apps are ports of their iOS version, wich makes them feel almost as bad as webapps (worse if we are talking about webapps on windows) and they are in general lacking in many ways both from a feature and UI standpoint.

Apple Music is a joke of a replacement for iTunes, and I could go on and on.

The core of the system may not have changed that much (well expect your data is less and less accessible, forcibly stored in their crappy obscure iCloud folder/dbs with rarely decent exports functions) but as the article hinted very well, you don't really buy an OS, just like nobody is really buying solely an engine. A great engine is cool and all, but you need a good car around that to make it valuable and this is exactly the same for an OS. It used to be that macOS was a good engine with a great car around, in the form of free native apps that shipped with it or 3rd party ones. Nowadays unless you really need the benefits of design/video apps very optimized for Apple platforms it increasingly is not a great car.

Apps around the system aren't too bad but they are very meh, especially for the price you pay for the privilege (and the obsolescence problem already mentioned above).

It's not really that macOS has regressed a lot (although it has in some in the iOSification process) but also that it didn't improve a whole lot meanwhile price and other penalty factors increased a lot.

But I doubt you can see the light, you probably are too far in your faith.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AutoCAD is an unlucky choice of example here, because it's one of the few GUI drawing tools that actually does have a command line behind it that you have to understand sometimes! Look up a screenshot of AutoCAD and you can see the command prompt at the bottom of the window. And if you were using AutoCAD in the 80's you can say exactly that you used to use the CLI only!

CorelDraw? Word? Audacity? Or maybe it will turn out that all GUI software has command line somewhere inside. I think my original point stands even better in that case. Yay for hair-splitting, I guess.

"Or maybe it will turn out that all GUI software has command line somewhere inside"

Not at all. Most maybe, but since I wrote GUIs without a CLI I can say for sure that not all have them.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise a good point about GUIs changing over time. Obviously, CLIs can change, but that happens less often and is usually in response to a poorly thought out first attempt at providing functionality (or when additional functionality is bolted on).

Since CLIs are used in scripts/automation there's much more pressure for them not to change. Essentially, they become an API so breaking changes are a big deal. GUIs, on the other hand, are very difficult to automate so they can't be used in that way even if people wanted. As an aside, I think a great foundation for a GUI application is a "server" API that the GUI interacts with. You can automate a lot of testing thi…

> As an aside, I think a great foundation for a GUI application is a "server" API that the GUI interacts with. You can automate a lot of testing this way and you can give power users the ability to automate workflows.

An idea already implemented to varying degrees of success in places like BeOS, Haiku (operating system), and to a much lesser extent, AppleScript! You could also throw in the COM interop of Windows and OS/2.

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