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Notes on Tajikistan

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Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#251

Post by shakow »

cess11 wrote: post #241
shakow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what you are hinting at. Probably the various ethnic cleansings that happened in the *stans at the fall of the USSR, where most more western ethnicities (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Armenians, ...) were at best swiftly & firmly reconducted to the nearest airport, and at worst killed on the spot.

It's best understood against the backdrop of a very long series of colonial endeavours. The circassian genocide is well documented.

> circassian genocide

You are aware that Circassia is 3 countries and more than 4000km away from Tajikistan, right? And that the ethnicities involved in the Circassian genocides are wholly separated from Tajiks?

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#252

Post by ChuffedToBits »

stef25 wrote: post #90
medwards666 wrote: post #7

I spent a fortnight with a small group of friends motorcycling along the Pamir highway back in 2022, then another week or so over in Kazakhstan (off the bikes this time). Fascinating pair of countries, and highly recommended to go travel and get off the beaten track.

Dream trip. Your own bikes ? How "free" were you and how difficult was it ? I've traveled by motorbike on 4 continent now and am dying to visit central asia to do more of that.

Not too difficult, really. Kyrgystan and Tajikistan especially are very popular with bicycle travelers, there's an established tourist infrastructure in the form of guest houses and homestays.

Border crossings into Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are a nightmare (on some crossings they will demand your unlocked phone to rifle through and have you unpack ALL you luggage onto a blanket). Once you're in the countries it's usually just the odd corrupt official, but I was able to out-wait and charm my way out of those situations.

Biggest headache imho: Almost every Westerner I met had some kind of digestive problem. I suffered from diarrhea coming and going for about two months.

There's motorcycle rentals and guided tours out of Osh, Kyrgyzstan, that will also tour the Pamir Highway and Wakhan Valley in Tajikistan. Highly recommend you check out photos from the area around the Issyk Kil Lake on Google Maps. It's just stunning up there.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#253

Post by cpursley »

lykahb wrote: post #171
justsomehnguy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ones that didn't manage to leave after the collapse of the Soviet Union > openly racist towards ethnic Tajiks Makes me wonder, maybe something happened between ethnic Tajiks and ethnic Russians between Soviet Union collapse and the present.

Most Russians hold racist views. It doesn't change if they are expats. As a result of the colonial conquests, Russia is a multiethnic state. But the minorities have never been fully accepted. The govt balances between suppressing the far right and managing it for its own purposes. This wiki article has plenty of references, with many pointing to the racist actions by the senior officials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

> Most Russians hold racist views

I understand that people are unhappy with Russia right now, but what a truly gross thing to say (and absolutely not true).

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#254

Post by OJFord »

hyperbolablabla wrote: post #207
theanonymousone wrote: post #189

Not so new fact that many here may already know: The (in?)famous -stan suffix, coming originally from Persian, is an etymological cousin of State, Street, Statistics, Strategy and Stadt. In Iran, provinces are called Ostan and some Ostans' names end with -stan (e.g. Ostan of Kurdistan). By the way, since it's not clear from their names, it may be worth noting that Tajiki and Persian are two dialects of the same langu…

*Farsi. Persia doesn't exist anymore. I find it strange that somewhat uniquely people refer to Iran by its ancient name. We're not speaking anglo-saxonish

Farsi is a Persian dialect, a bit like insisting I (British) speak American or if Spain disappeared as a state that Mexican is the language of Mexico. Or that someone can't be speaking Latin or Sanskrit because they're ancient, it's Italian and Hindi now, or something.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#255

Post by thriftwy »

dvdkon wrote: post #246
thriftwy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any military operation not sanctioned by the target region's people or government counts as an invasion It does not give one an excuse to skip the whole history of the region and start it where it fits them. I wonder if their values include skipping uncomfortable trivia or highlighting it when appropriate. With regards to values, the legitimacy of a 3 years old government is in deep doubt. The values you've mention…

If you only care about the current citizens'/government's opinion, you actually can ignore history leading up to that point. Geopolitics is complicated, however, and I think most people would bring more nuance to any moral judgment. What if a large portion of the previous population was killed/driven out, for instance? What if the citizens are subjected to "brainwashing"? I do have to disagree on the notion that a go…

I agree with you, but I was talking about a specific article which does an explicit history dive:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/19/georgi...

Also, this convention of not digging into a country's history can only ever work before it brings its history as a topic of conversation. In case of small, post-colonial countries that often happens on the first contact.

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#256

Post by mopsi »

thriftwy wrote: post #192
mopsi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a helpful map visualizing how Russia and Germany divided Eastern Europe in the secret protocol[1] to the Hitler-Stalin pact: https://i.imgur.com/DvCrPWB.jpeg As to the "Judenfrei" status, that's a great deal due to the executions and mass deportations[2] that Russians unleashed after invading in 1940. First they banned all Jewish organizations, even fraternities and tennis clubs. Then they started targeting th…

Soviet nomenclature did consist of Jews to significant extent. At times more, at times less, but it's disingenous for you to mention Jews being overrepresented among the victims without mentioning they were also overrepresented among Soviet officials, including high ranking ones. Of course, it weren't these random religious small business owners but people significantly conditioned by the socialist regime, which they…

Indeed, one of the most notorious war criminals in "Judenfrei" Estonia was Idel Jakobson[1], a Latvian Jew, who in the 1930s tried to overthrow the democratic government, but got arrested and imprisoned. He was freed under 1938 general amnestia and left the country. Returned in 1940 with invading forces as a NKVD officer. In that role, he tortured and executed hundreds of notable public figures, including many Jewish businessmen. Excavations at mass execution sites have shown that his modus operandi was shooting his victims right in the face. The fact that Jakobson was still alive was discovered in 1996, but he died before the massive case against him could be brought to court.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel_Jakobson

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#257

Post by mopsi »

thriftwy wrote: post #194
mopsi wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can forgive people for forgetting to mention that Baltic states were part of Russia for centuries before they were re-annexed by the USSR in 1945. Indeed I can see how people had 20 years of independence and weren't fans of being included into a socialist utopia. There's fair bit more history than the 20 years of independence squished by Russians in 1940. Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were always very di…

Before early XX century most of the globe was comprised of countries who looked like that. > the main language used in administrative affairs was German > to portray Georgia as a mere "province of Russian Empire" is ridiculous given that they are so distinct that you cannot even read what they write Please don't tell me that many Englishmen could read Devangari script or that many Frenchmen could read (pre-Latin) Vie…

> The subtexts that you are pinning on me are your own invention, I just say about unfaithful representation of history in the press.

What is the purpose of having to mention that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were in Russian Empire in the context of their invasion and occupation in the 1940s if not an attempt to give legitimacy to the invasions?

It's far more important to stress that the people on the Baltic coast are not Russians, have nothing in common with them, nor have never wanted to be close with them. The same applies to the many other indigenous Finno-Ugric peoples[1] on the other side of the border inside the present-day Russia who have been driven away from their land like Native Americans and decimated with hostile policies that have resulted in their rapid decline.

[1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeoDW20WQAESJuZ?format=jpg&name=...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#258

Post by grecy »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #216
grecy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent. What you said can equally be applied to many…

How did you get across the Darian Gap?

I shipped the Jeep in a shipping container from Colon in Panama to Cartegena in Colombia.

I documented the whole enterprise here http://theroadchoseme.com/shipping-across-the-darien-gap-pt-...

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#259

Post by sumedh »

geoka9 wrote: post #20
ssijak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description does not sound like an amazing place that you said it is in the first sentence?

Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen and very hospitable people. A very nice place to visit. Not a very good place to live though unless you're so rich that you don't have to rely on the local infrastructure and services for survival and quality of life.

> Some of the most beautiful mountain scenery I've ever seen

based on the pics in the article, it seems pretty similar to Himalayan regions of Pakistan, India, Nepal. What was so special?

Re: Notes on Tajikistan

#260

Post by grecy »

admissionsguy wrote: post #228
grecy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family I spent 2 years driving the length of the Pan-American Highway, and 3 years driving right around the African continent. What you said can equally be applied to many…

> and the West what?

Have you ever wondered why Switzerland is the world's second largest exporter of processed coffee, despite never growing a single bean? [1]. Germany is 3rd, Netherlands is 4th. Hmmmm.

Have you ever wondered why all those poor countries around the world sell unprocessed coffee to Switzerland for pennies rather than telling Switzerland to take a hike, processing it themselves and making way more money?

Have you ever wondered why many very poor countries around the world sell their raw minerals for a tiny fraction of the globally accepted price?

After three years on the ground in Africa, my eyes were very wide open. The multi-billion dollar loans from the IMF and World Bank have these countries over a barrel, and if they try to change the status quo, they will be sent back to the dark ages instantly. Spending time in Sudan was very educational, though it means I can never get a visa-wavier for the US. Why do you think that is? (Hint: gas in Sudan was 6 cents a liter..., diesel was half that)

Also very educational to try at get a visa for Ecuatorial Guninea (it has a TON of oil, and a TON of multi-national companies ripping it out). A foreigner can go to the island where the capital is no problem, but try getting permission to go to the mainland - you can't. Even with a valid visa you can't get in. (I camped in view of it here [2] )

Why? Because they don't want you to see what is happening there.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096413/main-export-coun...

[2] http://theroadchoseme.com/cameroon-closes

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