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Fast Crimes at Lambda School

sandofsky.com

251–260 of 354 posts

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#251
post #211
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are smart enough to program, I think. The biggest hurdle is being able to sit down and work on a program for 8 hours a day. All the other skills can be learned.

"Most people" as in "most people jayd16 interacts with", "most people who hold a white-collar job", "most people who hold any job at all", "most working-age adults", or "if you randomly selected a big enough group of people, more than half of them could become professional programmers"? I suspect we're in a bubble. Consider the charts at the end of https://users.ssc.wisc.edu/~hauser/merit_01_081502_complete.... , spe…

I think you're reading past jayd16's point. Just about anybody can figure out how to program x86 assembly, if they put in the effort. Saying this as a mom of a child who very much cannot program. It's one thing to want to be a successful programmer; and another thing entirely to want to program.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#252
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackernews has "protected people", typically high-ranking Silicon Valley types, for whom, if it is revealed they are scumbags, they will run interference, changing account names and replacing their powerwords with [redacted]. An example is the high-ranking GitHub engineer who has an Indian first name but goes by "Alex", who was accused of mistreating women, and actually pled guilty to at least one incidence of such.

Renaming accounts, redacting posts, etc. are all things that we do for users in general. We make no distinction between "high-ranking" users and others. We take care of these requests every day and have bent over backwards (e.g. spending hours writing code) to help people individually in cases where their needs were unusually complex. I can tell you for sure that whether the person is high- or low-status in $whoever'…

This is a trash policy. It's reputation laundering as a service.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#253
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang just banned my other account because I questioned if the comment was really just Austen using his network of burners. pretty obvious the HN people are in cohoots with their precious Austen and don't want to see his terrible reputation tarnished even more

No idea which account you're referring to but I certainly haven't banned anyone for that reason. In fact I just restored your other comments in this thread.

It's insane to read all the vile abuse thrown at you because people are angry at Silicon Valley big wigs and your absolute composure over it.

You're a beast, dang, and I highly respect you for it.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#254
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a year of computer science, but ended up going to App Academy with an ISA, because I couldn't really afford another couple of years. If ISAs are indentured servitude, but are still better than going to university, then what does that say about universities?

For real, if you applied the same level of scrutiny and the same kind of aggressive rhetoric to universities, the result would be a devastating critique. I think the same is true of other 'disruptive' companies that people love to hate (Uber, AirBnB, etc). We uncritically accept the status quo, and at the same time compare all upstarts against some platonic ideal of what we imagine could exist.

[deleted]

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#255
(Note: I was a founder at a coding bootcamp, Hack Reactor.)

I don't think an author who understands the domain would write like this. Even if we spot that Lambda was a tire fire that needed to die, the author's outrage doesn't square with realities on the ground in other sectors of postsecondary education, especially in programs that serve lower-income students. I wouldn't launch a general defense of Lambda/Allred but I think the following notes from a practitioner might be interesting.

Postsecondary employment stats are inaccurate across the board and intrinsically hard. In the real world I am mostly only aware of job stats that could be called "fake", and those which are not published. Hiring stats are surprisingly tough to get right and I would wager that the majority of public job stats would be called fake by the man on the street. For example, if you've seen a law school employment statistic, it probably includes (as "hired") all the people who work in another field, or who work part time, or who work on a "contract", etc. As a domain expert I can tell you there is no easy way to legislate this number's production (or outlaw the use of such stats) in a way that generates the outcomes you want, or which vindicates and villainizes the correct schools. Some state regulators make it illegal to publish or market job placement statistics; other state regulators make it mandatory! California's BPPE (for eg) posts them all publicly and a brief review will confirm that there are obvious incorrect filings which the regulator publishes without challenge. Accredited higher ed generally does not have direct state or federal regulatory oversight or rules on hiring stats. My personal opinion is that publishing and marketing hiring stats is good, actually -- even in an imperfect regime, which is the only way to do it -- but my broader point is that well-intended regulatory bodies haven't figured this out yet, and in any case the numbers are all wrong in the same ways that are cited here in shocked tones. Also would you be shocked if your local community college had reported 10% in-field employment? Note that "graduation" and "enrollment" are equally squiggly and intrinsically a part of the same statistic.

Sizable portions of debtholders are (or appear) surprised, unhappy, and/or obviously cheated by profit-taking lenders. I think a lot of us are frustrated that students are faced with impossible choices about debt. Many would say "public payment is the only moral system" but that argument isn't clearly stated here. (As an aside, publicly-funded higher ed tends to exclude poor students, both under the status quo and under proposals for publicly-funded higher ed. This is accomplished through insidious rationing of four-year and graduate institutions, and weak services for working students. Working-class Bachelors' students are routed to University of Phoenix and get $100k+ of debt instead of subsidized in-state tuition.) Putting aside the public funding dream, student debt is how we fund schools today, and vanilla debt has the same issues as ISAs (which are a type of debt). I can't speak to Lambda's ISA structure or administration but I have some general comments about ISAs. An ISA is a newfangled kind of debt that is legally restricted from being very different from debt. (It's basically a vanilla debt, bundled with an insurance product that pays if the alum earns less than $X, and costs extra if the alum earns more than $Y. The insurance can't legally carry high fees, so it can't refund many grads, and complicated administration and adverse incentives also cost a lot. In practice there will be winners and losers vs vanilla debt.) ISAs and conventional debt can be designed well or poorly, and explained well or poorly, but the author is outraged about things which happen abundantly in all these circumstances. I signed college debt paperwork; I griped about the parts I had understood, and the parts I hadn't understood; profit-seeking firms bought and sold my debt and tossed me about on their careless seas. I can personally report that informed low-income students generally love ISAs (the debt-plus-downside-insurance product), and usually dislike vanilla debt, and for this reason I like ISAs at least as much as vanilla debt.

Schools that serve lower-income students are disproportionately judged negatively by middle-class audiences, often with malign motives and/or malign emergent outcomes. Depending on how you lawyer the details, you could say that 90% of community college students waste time and money and never see any benefit. (And they're in a government-subsidized program and only paying a minority of true costs!) I would find that kind of lawyering to be holistically untrue, but I don't think normal people have grounded intuitions about what is normal and OK, and how that is influenced by class and income, part-time vs full-time, accredited vs unaccredited, etc. Many people aren't aware that there is more demand for BA/BS programs than there are subsidized schools -- doubly so if the student is working and lower-class -- and this is the normal audience for for-profit universities. The world's best institution for this audience would have bad employment stats, as compared to a bad b-tier state school, and as compared to middle-class attitudes about predation. Are lower-income students better served if we pass laws against low-success programs, or institute price caps, etc? I observe that schools which serve poor students appear dirty and compromised in myriad ways, even when they are operating at the top or the middle of curve in terms of execution. This shows up in employment stats, in student complaints about debt (rich kids just pay), in employee morale and pay grade, etc. Again, this is true of great schools that serve a vulnerable audience. (Not saying that's the case here. I honestly don't know where Lambda is on the curve, and I honestly don't know which Universities of Phoenix should be shut down. And I'm a domain expert!)

In conclusion: If this author were an all-powerful regulator, what % of postsecondary programs for low-income students would get shut down? (After examining the facts.) Would this benefit low-income students? I honestly don't know and there are no simple answers, but even if I assume that Lamda is an outlier that needs to die, I don't think an author who understands the landscape would write like this.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#256
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the linked article? I'm struggling to empathize with this fraud, especially after listening to the interview mentioned.

skimmed it. was a fan of @fulligin since before he became a citizen journalist and have followed it closely, i didnt really see much new info here in my browse thru. i'm not saying to empathize WITH THE FRAUD lol, just responding to GP about why austen stopped answering qtns. yes he fucked up, now give the guy a chance to build Bloom into something legit instead of constantly reading the most negative take into simpl…

> yes he fucked up, now give the guy a chance to build Bloom into something legit...

Oh hell no. He gets my empathy, sure. Empathy is good for a cup of hot cocoa and a hug if he shows up at my doorstep in tears. But give him more chances to perpetrate fraud after he's been so thoroughly exposed? Hellllll no.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#257
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hackernews has "protected people", typically high-ranking Silicon Valley types, for whom, if it is revealed they are scumbags, they will run interference, changing account names and replacing their powerwords with [redacted]. An example is the high-ranking GitHub engineer who has an Indian first name but goes by "Alex", who was accused of mistreating women, and actually pled guilty to at least one incidence of such.

Renaming accounts, redacting posts, etc. are all things that we do for users in general. We make no distinction between "high-ranking" users and others. We take care of these requests every day and have bent over backwards (e.g. spending hours writing code) to help people individually in cases where their needs were unusually complex. I can tell you for sure that whether the person is high- or low-status in $whoever'…

Why not just allow users to do on their own?

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#258

Back in the late 80s / early 90s, I taught non-traditional students coming in through state-funded retraining programs at UT Arlington Continuing Education and Texas State Technical Institute (now TSTC) in Waco. The idea was "here are a bunch of laid-off manufacturing workers who want to retrain as SOMETHING with high-tech." The most popular courses were of the very short "here's how to do some things with Unix" vari…

It is incredibly hard to find ANYONE at any of these "coding bootcamps" or online education platforms that has any idea about what pedagogy is (or that it even exists) to the point that I seriously think anyone that makes it out of these programs and lands a job was mostly because they got the focus and time to learn by themselves (due to being in the program) than due to the program itself.

They just needed a kick in the butt. Anyone that actually needs to learn how to program for real, won't make it out.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but if you are unable to understand the basics of calculus and discrete math, then you should not be in a Computer Science program (with emphasis on the "science" part). CS isn't just programming - it's the theory of how computers work and math is an integral part of that. Just because you don't use it every day in the job itself doesn't mean that the information is useless.

While I've certainly found calculus useful on many occasions, I don't think calculus is a particularly important requirement for understanding how computers work. On the other hand, calculus prerequisites are a filter that filters out anyone who might be inclined to say "math is hard" and give up, which might correlate with people who say "computers are hard" and give up. Or in other words, it's easier to say "Prereq…

Its really only important because you need it to truly understand probability and statistics, which you need to really understand how computers work.

Re: Fast Crimes at Lambda School

#260

I was one of the coding instructors at Make School which was similar to Lambda School and was bankrupt couple years ago. Our major issue? It was damn hard to find enough students for our school who were talented enough to understand computer science and had enough grit to finish the program and get a job. Why? Because those students were already absorbed by the established traditional universities.

Counter point, I have worked with a company we’ll call “C” and they have been able to build a pipeline of folks who have been incredibly effective (>50). That being said the program is a bit more than ~3 months and the students go all in, they’re not doing it part time. The students come from different backgrounds, some have not graduated highschool, and they come hungry for better opportunities. We’ve tried this wit…

I think expecting it to scale is really the main problem. There's clearly more than zero people for whom a coding bootcamp is a great fit, but it shouldn't come as a great surprise that maybe that pool of people isn't huge.
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