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EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#251

Post by thrance »

kvgr wrote: post #39
thrance wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialist?? The EU is still primarily a neoliberalist institution, I can't think of a single socialist reform it upheld. It's all about enforcing privatization of what wasn't yet and fostering economic competition among its members. Are you just throwing words you don't understand?

Tell me more how all the money transfers are neoliberal? How the “creating of european idea” is neoliberal? How “we must have minimal taxes in europe” is neoliberal. Industrial subsidies for car and aeroplane companies. Compulsary social and retirement policies. In EU socialism is the norm, everything outside is branded almost extreme right. And right is a bad word in EU. If you take right and cut out russian support…

Europe is constantly pushing for privatization of public sectors such as rail, electricty... Subsidies would be socialist if the people owned the companies that received them, which is absolutely not the case. All the money transfers and other policies you talk about are only carried out in the sole goal of evening out a playing field for the european private sector to compete in.

You are right in that it is not exactly neoliberal, I believe the correct term is "ordoliberal".

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#252

Post by nebalee »

Sander_Marechal wrote: post #90
ben_w wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but in the EU of tomorrow, your digital EU idea will be the choking point. Do something out of line, and it can be revoked and with it, your bank, credit cards, health care, travel and other services. I won't say that future will never happen only because "never" is a long time, but that's not happening in the foreseeable future. I'm in Germany right now, and theoretically my ID card can be used online. In practice…

Germany is a lot less digital than the rest of Europe though. Germans by-and-large even refuse to use debit cards (pin&chip). It's so strange visiting Germany as a tourist and not being able to pay with my card in a restaurant for example.

Germany has a very well established electronic cash system in the form of Girocard because the overwhelming majority has a Girokonto and thus no need for a separate payment method. So why should any business in Germany go through the trouble to offer additional payment options for the extremely few cases where a customer cannot pay via Girocard or with cash? If you are frustrated that you cannot use your card you should blame whoever issued it to you. It's their responsibility to convince businesses to offer their payment method.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#253

Post by dsign »

sph wrote: post #138
egorfine wrote: post #18

They won't stop, won't they.

The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and cit…

>> Even in tech niches like this, cryptoanarchist ideas get routinely derided as useless and scams.

I agree.

The tendency to over-criticize and deride is part of the self-inflicted helplessness. Every attempt to improve things gets a fair deal of scorn and criticism...which is not exactly good.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#254

Post by ffsm8 »

constantcrying wrote: post #228
ffsm8 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did the EU become a country though...?

How do EU rules not influence the countries which are member states?

I would certainly hope they do, it'd be entirely pointless if it didn't.

Doesn't change that it's not a country.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#256

Post by constantcrying »

ffsm8 wrote: post #254
constantcrying wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do EU rules not influence the countries which are member states?

I would certainly hope they do, it'd be entirely pointless if it didn't. Doesn't change that it's not a country.

But the rules the EU makes impact the country I live in.

The EU does not need to be a country for their rules to have impacts on countries. I think this is pretty self explanatory though?

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#257

Post by voidbert »

arlort wrote: post #191
rvnx wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were elections about a week ago, so people voted for that, did they change mind in a week ? If you go against what people voted for, isn't it denying democracy and the votes of the people ?

I guarantee you the number of people who voted in the EU elections thinking of this is negligible And also the council has its own legitimacy which is not dependent on the EU elections, if the EP voted on this as a lame duck you'd have a point, but that doesn't seem to be happening

Most people are just concerned about economic and social issues, and the implications this proposal has on freedom of speech and what that means to democracy seems to be unknown to most. In Portugal, this proposal was not debated nor was it present on most parties' electoral agendas. Furthermore, I got no replies from the MEP candidates I emailed about their opinion on chatcontrol. Even if I wanted to vote accordingly to this proposal, I simply couldn't.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#258

Post by zaik »

shiroiushi wrote: post #136
zaik wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I self-host a standard XMPP server for my family. Let's see how long it takes before this is illegal too.

You actually get them to use it? That's the problem with most of these ideas: sure, you can just roll your own encryption, chat program, etc., but getting the people in your life to use it is another matter. My mom has enough trouble using the popular and ubiquitous chat app we communicate through; something custom is going to be beyond her.

Yes, I get them to use it, but I help them setting up a suitable client. I deleted all the walled garden apps like WhatsApp.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#259

Post by Zak »

matricaria wrote: post #4

Are there ways to circumvent this? Selfhosting? Encryption before sending?

Many, and most of them are easy enough that anyone seriously concerned with privacy or secrecy will use them. They do take effort though, which means that while journalists, lawyers, corporations, governments, privacy nerds, and criminals will use them, the average person will not.

What we would lose is that secure communication is actually mainstream now. Billions of people, many of whom don't even know what "end to end encrypted" means use messaging services with strong encryption including WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, even Facebook chat in some cases. These services make mass surveillance difficult or impossible, and targeted surveillance of their users requires significant effort, such as installing malware on a target's device.

Re: EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

#260

Post by arlort »

voidbert wrote: post #257
arlort wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you the number of people who voted in the EU elections thinking of this is negligible And also the council has its own legitimacy which is not dependent on the EU elections, if the EP voted on this as a lame duck you'd have a point, but that doesn't seem to be happening

Most people are just concerned about economic and social issues, and the implications this proposal has on freedom of speech and what that means to democracy seems to be unknown to most. In Portugal, this proposal was not debated nor was it present on most parties' electoral agendas. Furthermore, I got no replies from the MEP candidates I emailed about their opinion on chatcontrol. Even if I wanted to vote accordingl…

this specific proposal had the benefit of already having had votes on it, so you could've probably found the parties' voting records there. But yeah, there's a broader issue with how european politics is approached since it is always so nationalized that these kind of votes end up as referendums on the national government, which in turn breeds ignorance of what the EU is responsible for and for what it isn't which feeds the vicious cycle of apathy

I'm mildly optimistic it'll get better since the EU and EU politicians are getting more visible. I just hope we don't overshoot and end up where the US is right now where people seem to think the president does everything at all times at all levels

Btw, I'm assuming you meant "MEP candidate" when you say "deputy candidate", in english as far as I can tell deputy lost the meaning of "legislature member" in common use, that remained common in Latin languages (italian here, we use the same term)

Just an FYI that it might confuse some people (like it did with me before I switched to thinking about it in italian) why you were asking the deputies of a candidate instead of the candidates themselves

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