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Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

threema.ch

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Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#251

Post by infecto »

intunderflow wrote: post #188
infecto wrote: post #187

I don't support this legislation but I also do not live in the EU. Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender after two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children.

Similar reason why there's no death penalty. If you get the wrong person and you lock them up you can release them with compensation, it won't fix it but its better. You can't un-castrate someone the same way you can't revive them after an execution. Courts convict innocent people all the time, hence no irreversible punishments.

Ok but after two strikes? If you have gotten into trouble twice, I don’t have much concern. Life is not fair sometimes. Happy to see if there are better ways to treat abusers that improve recidivism but I am not convinced prison time works. There is something deeply wrong with people who not only have the desires but are willing to act on them knowing it will hurt their victims.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#252

Post by infecto »

sturmdev wrote: post #236
infecto wrote: post #187

I don't support this legislation but I also do not live in the EU. Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender after two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children.

When discussing extreme punishments like this, you must consider false convictions. Only in a perfect justice system (which is not achievable) could we allow such punishments. FWIW, I also feel this way about the death penalty. When proposing “permanent” punishments like this, always put yourself in the shoes of someone who is falsely convicted. And consider that false convictions can (and do) happen for a wide varie…

Right I get it and I too always put myself in those shoes. I think if you have been convicted twice that it’s likely to weed out most of those cases. Generally once you have been convicted once, you are already not allowed around children.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#253

Post by infecto »

amelius wrote: post #208
infecto wrote: post #187

I don't support this legislation but I also do not live in the EU. Honest question, why do we (US, EU, wherever) not have more harsh punishment for child SA? Why not castrate the offender after two strikes or even one? I am sure there are other biological reasons for this to happen but I got the impression a lot of abusers were abused as children.

Because we don't live in the middle ages and have human right laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity

Such a dismissing statement without any meat. Happy if other alternatives are explored but I have not heard of any that significantly improve the recidivism rate.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#254

Post by t0bia_s »

netsharc wrote: post #167
t0bia_s wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar was transition from covid to war in Ukraine. Suddenly, covid disappeared from media.

So, who orchestrated a country's army with its hundred thousand men, tanks, bombs, against another country's, plus its civilians, and then even more civilians needing to run away... as a distraction? From what? Man, how did this "conspiracy theory" mental illness become so commonplace?

You imply conclusions that I didn't wrote.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#255

Post by shrimp_emoji »

asah wrote: post #127
neugiergiraffe wrote: post #58

Can someone explain to me why, over time, democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance ? Is it beacuse a lot of people feel unsafe or is it because the people supposed to ensure our security see it as the "easiest" or most effective way to do their job? Is there so much benefit to having a fuctioning mass surveilance apparatus, and if yes, who benefits of it if not the people for whom these rules for in the…

The issue is the rise of mass surveillance tech, which makes it too easy. Also, tech creates new threats (including terror plots, protecting children etc) which drive demand for the surveillance.

This is unironically it.

Technology is evil. Specifically, the Internet is evil.

It's why it's got such a uniquely rich potential for dystopia, why all news is always bad news, why it's always getting worse.

Technology, as it progresses, is the enabling of power. So you'll find more and more power exerted over you because people can't resist. You'll have to assert power of your own to counter it, like switching to Linux or using a VPN. Or torrenting a media to escape the oppressive DRM placed upon it. But it's essentially a war you've found yourself enlisted in. If you've got the chops to fight in it, you're lucky; most don't.

I single out the Internet because it connects us with oppressors and makes us reliant on them more intimately than ever before. AI will be able to extend that oppression even in an air gapped environment because now the oppressor's intent can be packaged up and installed on the machine like never before -- no connection required.

And, in the limit, I think it all ends with gray goo, Daybreak style.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#256

Post by willcipriano »

throwaway43734 wrote: post #112
blowski wrote: post #28

I too instinctively bristle at this kind of legislation. It's likely to be abused, with many false positive that make it more effective at sweeping up innocent people, while the guilty just find workarounds. But all coming on here and saying "ooohh, this is bad, innit!" is not very interesting, and unlikely to prevent it. Why is the EU doing this? Which political groups are supporting and opposing it? Why now? How ar…

There are organizations which are selling AI tools to filter content. For instance, Thorn, a US organization founded by Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore, is building such tools and heavily lobbying for Chat Control in EU. "Ashton Kutcher is a tireless advocate." https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the...

"Kelso would've wanted the surveillance state, and he banged Eric's sister so he is someone to look towards for moral guidance"

"Oui oui!"

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#257

Post by MzHN »

prasoonds wrote: post #155
romankolpak wrote: post #105

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but I want to ask it because I see the same sentiment across HN and other forums and I’m legitimately confused. If we don’t hijack privacy in messaging, how do we fight crime happening on a message platform? If government doesn’t have access to message contents, what’s stopping criminals from using the platform and never get tracked down? Or proven guilty, since all the proof i…

The criminals absolutely will move away to something that is outside government control. Many such apps already exist and you can run what you like on Android phones with custom ROMs. Think about it - if you're a criminal, and you know about chat control, why would you risk your chats being leaked at all? Why wouldn't you use a different app that you know to be more secure (this already happens for any serious crime…

Until possession and distribution of such apps becomes a crime in itself.

That's the only way to enforce it and there is history for it in cryptography export laws and anti-circumvention laws.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#258

Post by vaylian »

IMTDb wrote: post #125
neugiergiraffe wrote: post #58

Can someone explain to me why, over time, democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance ? Is it beacuse a lot of people feel unsafe or is it because the people supposed to ensure our security see it as the "easiest" or most effective way to do their job? Is there so much benefit to having a fuctioning mass surveilance apparatus, and if yes, who benefits of it if not the people for whom these rules for in the…

In this case it's not really about mass surveillance. I genuinely do not believe it's the intended purpose (even if it is the actual outcome). The issue is that Europe is behind in tech; particularly big communication networks (aka: social networks). One key element here is that the amount of taxes paid by the Facebooks and co. is ridiculously low and their importance in the economy is getting bigger and bigger. This…

That doesn't make sense. There are 2 versions of chatcontrol:

1. Voluntary chatcontrol (i.e. temporary derogation of the ePrivacy directive)

2. Mandatory chatcontrol (i.e. services must scan private communication once a detection order is issued)

The first version of chatcontrol is currently in effect, but it will expire in a few years. It was introduced, because social media (like facebook) was already scanning private communication to find CSAM and then someone pointed out that this is illegal in the EU and thus the ePrivacy directive was sabotaged to allow the scanning of private communication.

Facebook wanted to have a legal basis for the scanning of private communication. This does not hurt non-EU social networks, it helps them.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped – Now

#259

Post by nobutterbetter »

henry_pulver wrote: post #131
blowski wrote: post #28

I too instinctively bristle at this kind of legislation. It's likely to be abused, with many false positive that make it more effective at sweeping up innocent people, while the guilty just find workarounds. But all coming on here and saying "ooohh, this is bad, innit!" is not very interesting, and unlikely to prevent it. Why is the EU doing this? Which political groups are supporting and opposing it? Why now? How ar…

> But all coming on here and saying "ooohh, this is bad, innit!" is not very interesting, and unlikely to prevent it. I disagree - this is how the internet can strengthen democracy. Upvoting and commenting makes this post hit the top of HN and stay there. This makes it visible to many EU citizens who can reach out to their MEP's to ask them to vote against it. Seems a pretty effective strategy to me as someone living…

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