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EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#251

Post by vik0 »

squigz wrote: post #147
vik0 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Unfortunately outside the US and a handful of other places free speech doesn't seem to be valued that much, often it's even viewed as a threat >Can you convince me of this? Because it's not my impression. In my country (Macedonia), our then-Prime Minister a few years ago during the height of the pandemic, spoke (broken) English and funnily pronounced vaccines, something like "vac-signs" (or "vaksajns" in Macedonia…

Mmm, yes. America is the only country that has true freedom of speech. I suppose that's why a silly Canadian like me wouldn't know much about other countries. We just don't have free speech.

>I suppose that's why a silly Canadian like me wouldn't know much about other countries. We just don't have free speech.

You're speaking of Canada, the same country where the (Canadian) Bill of Rights can be suspended (which to begin with, this document is not taken very seriously) along with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is present in your constitution, and free speech with it, for the "good of the people" of course... Yep, you're right, you don't have meaningful free speech, nor do you have that many rights compared to the US.

Oh, and, you're Prime Minister is also basically an absolute monarch compared to the US President, given how few meaningful checks there are limiting his power.

I admit, a few years ago I was naive about just how free Canada is, but once I started reading your statutes a lot of things started surprising me, in a not-so-good way.

(Now, don't take this the wrong way, you're still a freer country than fricking North Korea, but relatively speaking, for a Western democracy, you just ain't that free, bud.)

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#252

Post by squigz »

tonynator wrote: post #242
squigz wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation Secondly, you're okay with someone inciting violence/vandalism/crimes, and people acting explicitly on that person's direction, as long as only the actual violence/vandalism/crime is punished?

Defamation shouldn't exist (see Alex Jones, that's an insane situation to be told to pay $1.5 BILLION for sharing an opinion) but the standards are generally higher than "someone told lies about my character" at least. Yes. Everyone has agency, if I tell you to commit a crime it's up to you whether to do so.

Well I'm glad the vast majority of people don't agree with you and actually recognize there's nuance here.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#253

Post by account42 »

troad wrote: post #210
londons_explore wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal isn't big enough to play that game. They'll just be blocked from the app store for EU users and their user base in the EU will drop to near zero within a year.

To my knowledge, Signal makes a grand total of €0 in profit in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter, being a not-for-profit. It is not the purpose of a not-for-profit to grow exponentially. The Signal Foundation's mission is to ensure the continued existence of a secure messenger app. The people in charge of Signal take that mission very seriously, to their great credit. There are already anti-circumvention mecha…

Doesn't really matter what Signal does. If this goes through then the next push will be to implement the scanning at the OS-level for non-compliant apps. Or just to demand that Android and iOS get the ability to block apps on a government list even if installed outside the app store. Sure, a few hackers (and the criminals) will always have secure communications but you can't win the fight for widespread secure communication against the government's will with technological means.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#254

Post by adammarples »

switch007 wrote: post #222
anigbrowl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU was established to provide mutual economic and military security in Europe on a federal model following WW2, and it's done very well in that aim. Of course it's not perfect, but shallow takes like the one above provide nothing of value.

Following WW2? The European Union was established in 1993 with the Maastricht Treaty

The EU is an evolution of the EEC which is much older. The whole federation as a concept was made after and in response to WWII

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#255

Post by account42 »

katbyte wrote: post #205
tonynator wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they'll also defend laws like the ones passed earlier in the year by the US House about codifying the IHRA's definition of anti-Semitism. Anyone who defended that isn't even close to a free-speech absolutist. >I don't believe anyone truly has a Free Speech Absolutist position I do. It's what makes America great. Erosions like that jewish law are slowly weakening that. You should be allowed to say whatever you want a…

Should I be able to make wild claims about my product to trick you into buying it? False claims about my buisness performance to pump the stock? Lies about your character? Your kids? made up stuff that whips up entire segments of your city to commit violence or vandalism against you? Because absolute free speech is allowing all that without consequence

> Should I be able to make wild claims about my product to trick you into buying it? False claims about my buisness performance to pump the stock?

If you also abolish the notion of intellectual property as well as trade secrets, both of which are severe limitations on free speech, then sure. Otherwise it's just another case of wanting free speech when it suits the company but wanting to restrict it when it doesn't.

> Lies about your character? Your kids? made up stuff that whips up entire segments of your city to commit violence or vandalism against you?

Sure, as long as the actual violence and vandalism is harshly punished to discourage people from acting on falsehoods. The speech was never the real problem here.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#256

Post by xinayder »

mariusor wrote: post #229
mellosouls wrote: post #136

Headline is clickbait nonsense. Nothing is being greenlighted. Here's the only relevant section, which links to an article [1] that says only that discussion will continue on the 19th June: According to documents leaked by netzpolitik.org, the COREPER 2 meeting in which they will put it [compromise proposal] to a vote will already take place on Wednesday, 19 June. [1] https://netzpolitik.org/2024/anlasslose-massenueb…

Also, I expect "green light" in this context means that it will make it on the EU Parliament's agenda, nothing more. That's still perilously close, but it's not done and dusted yet.

I'm pretty sure the "greenlight" on the title means they are meeting to confirm that the countries will vote in favor of the law so it can be quickly approved once it makes to the parliament:

> If Chat Control is endorsed by Council now, experience shows there is a great risk it will be adopted at the end of the political process.

meaning: there will be little opposition to the proposal once it reaches the MEPs.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#257

Post by xela79 »

dankai wrote: post #167

The current draft would cover every kind of service that allows people to exchange information so that every DM you send on reddit, twitter, discord, steam, ... would be have to be scanned. Not even the most totalitarian governments on this planet have tried to implement something like this. Also it sounds extremely illusory that the people exchanging CSAM wouldn't simply switch to private services knowing their mess…

https://www.synology.com/en-eu/dsm/packages/Chat

self hosted chats included? ;)

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#258

Post by joha4270 »

switch007 wrote: post #222
anigbrowl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU was established to provide mutual economic and military security in Europe on a federal model following WW2, and it's done very well in that aim. Of course it's not perfect, but shallow takes like the one above provide nothing of value.

Following WW2? The European Union was established in 1993 with the Maastricht Treaty

The European Coal and Steel Community, which in many ways is the precursor organization to EU was formed in 1951, with the explicit goal of linking the German and French economies to such a degree that they would be incapable of waging war against each other.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#259

Post by notnaut »

tonynator wrote: post #212
katbyte wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I be able to make wild claims about my product to trick you into buying it? False claims about my buisness performance to pump the stock? Lies about your character? Your kids? made up stuff that whips up entire segments of your city to commit violence or vandalism against you? Because absolute free speech is allowing all that without consequence

Yes. The free market would solve the first two, the next two aren't even crimes currently, and with the last the crime is the violence/vandalism not someone telling a fib.

“The free market would fix it” quite spiritually similar to “god will provide” or “prayer solves everything.”

Maybe, maybe with an unwieldy amount of time the rubes would all die out as they administer snake oil to themselves and their families, the pyramid schemes all collapse under the weight of their inability to produce the results their funders sought, and the collective, unorganized and ungovernmented multitudes publicly shame and criticize those industry leaders who conducted research into the effects of their products, but decided instead to make some shit up to sell more.

Maybe more likely: as the divine wisdom of the heavenly free market dictates, a few really good liars get a massive foothold and build empires on it. And maybe in the truest American free market fashion, these opportunities to profit from fraud are available to everyone! Even if you’re not clever enough to build an empire, you can at least move state to state, lying, selling more slow-burn poison, all the while with the cops backing you up when the mob forms, because fraud and the affects of lying are as protected as saying something ignorant or mean.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#260

Post by account42 »

consumer451 wrote: post #72
dauertewigkeit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate speech accusations are a bit like being accused of rape. Once it happens you automatically get tainted and it is very hard to defend yourself in the public sphere, even if the accusations are totally unfounded. This is of course abused by evil people. Moreover, what counts as hate speech can very suddenly alter depending on whoever is in charge, and even if the public don't go along with it, it can still be used…

I am not directing this at you, or anyone here, truly. However, this XKCD always come to mind whenever I hear the topics of hate speech and free speech mentioned within proximity of each other: https://xkcd.com/1357/

This kind of attitude is of course why the government is more than happy to have megacorporations in control of our public square who they can then push to implement the censorship they want.

Of course unless you are trying to win an internet argumet about free speech with a gotcha that makes you feel smart then you will realize that free speech doesn't just mean preventing the government from directly interfering with your speech but is a much broader concept.

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