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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#251

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

It's an easy trap to fall into for those who've never spent significant time around animals. After owning a few dogs you realize that they have their own unique experience of the world, and it's probably somewhere along the same continuum that we are. They know family, they go through a rebellious adolescent phase, they throw tantrums, get bored, excited, happy, horny, etc.

I'll never know what it's like to experience the world through my nose the way my dog does, and he'll never know what it's like to read a book, but it doesn't mean that we don't love each other dearly. And I don't need to read his mind to know that, because it's plainly obvious in his actions and body language.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#252
post #194

I can't say this is backed by anything, i don't know, but my gut feel is humans are somewhat different in that they have developed language both spoken and written to such an extent, that now there is a constant journaller as part of most people's minds documented everything we do, feel, think. This journaller basically happens autonomously, without direction. This journalling mechanism, i think, is what most people…

I definitely don't have an inner voice. I certainly can "enable it", for things such as composing this reply. But in general I'd describe it as a stream of thought, not bound to any language. Then when I need to actually communicate I "pipe" it through whatever language I need (I grew up in a home with multiple languages, don't know if that influences it).

One way I notice this is how thoughts are generally unpacked and stored without a language association, meaning I can't remember how people phrased something, only how I interpreted it. I feel like this is a decent memory optimization, but it drives my wife nuts and can be very unhelpful during arguments...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People swear they have emotional relationships with their pet lizards, who totally lack the part of the brain that can feel emotions…

Zhuangzi: See how the minnows come out and dart around as they please! That is what fish enjoy! Huizi: You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy? Zhuangzi: You're not I, so how do you know that I don't know what fish enjoy?

Oh then demonstrate your supernatural abilities to know what a lizard is feeling to us

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#254

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

Do animals have friends, enemies, cliques? Yes. Do animals play practical jokes on each other? Yes. I've seen all of these in cows.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#255

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

Do animals have friends, enemies, cliques? Yes. Do animals play practical jokes on each other? Yes. I've seen all of these in cows.

Cow practical joke anecdotes, please! :-)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zhuangzi: See how the minnows come out and dart around as they please! That is what fish enjoy! Huizi: You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy? Zhuangzi: You're not I, so how do you know that I don't know what fish enjoy?

Oh then demonstrate your supernatural abilities to know what a lizard is feeling to us

I've no such ability (and never claimed to), but I'll share what I can.

A few years ago I was standing on my balcony. I saw a lizard sunning itself on a rock, a story below. On impulse I made a shadow puppet of a bird, and that lizard took off running. I don't know what the emotional experience of a lizard is like, but I'm as certain as I am of anything that the lizard feared for it's life, whatever fear means to a lizard. Maybe fear isn't an emotion to a lizard, maybe it's more like a state of mind. I have no idea, that question is unanswerable.

I've had mouse problems many times. I can tell you that mice have distinct personalities. I catch them with live traps and release them. Some of them leave immediately when the box opens. Others cower and must be coaxed out. They have favored places and such. If you study then and learn their habits, you can place traps very effectively.

There was a mouse that would go behind my toaster and chew on stuff. The first time I walked over to see what the sound was, they threw themselves off the counter and tumbled down the spice rack. The second time they darted out and climbed down the spice rack. The third time, they came out at a relaxed pace, easy as can be, and gracefully climbed the power chord down to the floor. Presumably they learned I was all bark and no bite.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#257

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

This problem is compounded by a certain class of neuroscientist, who upon hitting the hard (scientifically unresolvable) problem of consciousness, declares that consiousness is something else, like neural correlates of stimulation. This invariably causes disappointment when attending mainstream lectures with the word "consciousness" in the title.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#258

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

I think you're over complicating it. When people generally talk about consciousness, they're talking about the phenomenology of awareness in the present moment. It's not really hard to define.

It's difficult to establish whether or not an animal is conscious in the way that it's difficult to establish whether another person is conscious. The only evidence we have for consciousness is the fact that we personally experience it ourselves. And because of that, we can't truly know if other's are conscious from a philosophical sense (i.e.—philosophical zombies) but we can posit scientifically that they must be since they share the same brain structure that we do.

Now when we're trying to establish scientifically whether or not an animal is conscious or not, it's more difficult because we don't have the subjective experience of being that animal, and we can't philosophically transfer the phenomenology of the experience our brain creates onto theirs. So, while I think the question "are animals conscious?" is well-bounded, it's not one that is currently answerable due to the currently private nature of consciousness.

> Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.

Reacting to stimuli is all possible without consciousness—just like crabs react to noxious, painful stimuli without nociceptors. So the phenomena you're describing is not what people are talking about when they're debating consciousness

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#260
post #120

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…

> Whatever it is that allowed humans to accomplish things like that is a worthy basis of a distinction.

Probably due to walking upright and eating meat

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