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Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

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Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#251

Post by j45 »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #240
j45 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big time. In some cases where hospitals do paper charting, it can be mis charted. or, there can be issues with not recording medication as being given or not, and the patient can miss their dose because a nurse thinks it was given. There is some cases where such confusion is tolerated depending on the patient.

>>> or, there can be issues with not recording medication as being given or not, and the patient can miss their dose because a nurse thinks it was given. Partially true. First, there's no need to record anything in any EMR, this is a big misunderstanding. The act of sending the script is recording it itself. There's no need to do data entry in EMR. You can test this by simply attempting to send eScripts outside of th…

> First, there's no need to record anything in any EMR, this is a big misunderstanding. The act of sending the script is recording it itself. There's no need to do data entry in EMR.

Not quite. Hospital EMRs now have barcoding and scanning, for timed doses being delivered an to make sure they were - saw it first hand in the past year.

This is a shadow working culture issue, not a technical one.

Hospital workplace cultures can be quite toxic, and that plays out varying degrees of horrible for certain segments of the population 60 percent of the time, every time.

In hospitals, prescriptions are administered usually by a nurse.

Since it's a problem that can be casually looked away from because it doesn't impact one group, it can be downplayed.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#253

Post by hansvm »

naasking wrote: post #219
pixl97 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in computing around medical facilities and providers, unfortunately, I believe this is just a pipe dream. Companies that charge a lot for the software will buy up the smaller companies providing services until only a few are left. They'll bundle it up with an expensive price tag. Even more so, providers tend to have protection when they buy a piece of software used by a large number of other providers.…

They can only buy up companies that are willing to sell. Principles still matter to some people.

Salesperson's Perspective

(initial introductions, "accidentally" stumbling on the owner's favorite bar/beach/...) Yeah, I'm doing my damndest to make the world a better place. There's all of these great tools for doctors, but they're struggling, getting hit by the crossfire of malpractice suits and interoperability difficulties.

(later meetings) We just landed ! They're world-class at helping patients with , but they didn't have the resources to survive in the current political climate. The founders were floundering pouring their own money in to try to keep their patients happy, but with our help the patients are better off and the founders can finally retire comfortably.

(much later) I see how much you care about your business and how it's really about the people you serve; that's why I got into it too. When it's finally time for you to sell, you definitely don't have to go with us, but please try to hand it off the right way to somebody who cares. Private equity vultures don't make anybody happy.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#254

Post by moralestapia »

hansvm wrote: post #249

There is a 0% chance they aren't slurping up that data to store forever (and "improve their core offerings" or whatever the privacy policy says). Anyone want to take bets on whether the first breach is: (1) A vindictive employee tracks down their ex's information (2) The raw database is breached and wholesaled (3) Somebody embeds the AI's RAG data in HTML for anyone to read (4) The training job's Spark admin portal l…

This data already exists anyway and has been there for like 50+ years ...

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#255

Post by loceng »

genewitch wrote: post #225
loceng wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at a small enough timeframe and a completely free market without setting up rules to the game to keep it an even playing field, then that's an issue, yes. What are your thoughts on patents?

if there's rules to ensure fairness then it isn't a free market. and if a market with rules could be called a free market, but only for arbitrary slices of time, i'd submit that also isn't a free market. "allow lucky or unscrupulous owners to swallow less lucky or more ethical owners' businesses until there's only 1-3 players left that are too big to start to compete with and too big for the others to buy out."

I find perfectionism gets in the way in such conversations: the goal is aiming for the freest market possible, but no - you can't legally sell services to assassinate people; unless you're the state who has a monopoly on violence.

Because on the other side we have people blaming the free market and capitalism in general for the problems, when capitalism is the solution - it's crony capitalism or what I prefer to call it - corruption and things like regulatory capture that's the problem.

The problem is heavily industrial complexes' funding and lobbying of politicians, placing politicians who will favour policy for them - is the problem; and it appears that foreign bad actors have also helped certain politicians get elected elsewhere.

I like the Democracy Dollars and Journalism Dollars solutions proposed by Andrew Yang during his presidential run to help act as a counterweight to the power of industrial complexes.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#256

Post by alecsm »

Magi604 wrote: post #170
TacticalCoder wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a doctor that was nearing the age of retirement or had very poor keyboard proficiency... I went to a doctor recently who was typing very fast. I did kid with her that she could type nearly as fast as I did and yet she was also using one of this automated note taking thinggamagic (holding some kind of microphone in her hand). She'd type manually for stuff like email/subject, click click one sentence here, click,…

I once had to go to a walk-in clinic to deal with a minor emergency. The doctor who attended me was literally typing with his pointer fingers.

Fun fact. An old coworker typed like that. He's a software engineer.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#257

Post by m3047 »

renewiltord wrote: post #182
m3047 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working at the edge of cybersecurity and privacy, you've just stepped in it: there is no "Health Insurance Portability and Privacy Act". It's the "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act" (HIPAA). (And I see that noone corrects you below. [edit -- actually a few people do, or the comments are continuing]) Gravity is a fairly strict law too. Maybe you should review what it covers, what it doesn't. The Act…

It's a bit unfair since it's an easy mistake to make but I treat HIPPA as the equivalent of seeing a resume that says someone knows SAP, Bash, JAVA, GIT, Perl. The capitalization is kind of bozo-signaling. HIPPA is bozo-signaling. I wouldn't expect right capitalization of FedRAMP. But JAVA vs. Java and HIPPA vs HIPAA just seem like you're not truly familiar.

I'm not sure what your comment is: it's a bit unfair; it's easy to make a mistake; it's bozo-signaling; [you] wouldn't expect right [correct?] capitalization; [something other than capitalization] seem[s] like you're not truly familiar.

What's unfair? Are random mistakes unfair (that's a very good philosophical question)? Are we forbidden from learning about other people from their mistakes or from mistakes generally?

The parent says:

> The HIPPA rules on health data are fairly strict

The followons variously say:

> I can't tell you how many forms I've opted out of that wanted to explicitly export my data to third parties and partners that are not HIPPA compliant.

> I wasn't claiming that MyCharts isn't HIPPA compliant

> The HIPPA rules may be strict

I'm more convinced that these people are making claims about the heart of what they presume HIPAA to be than I am about my parent poster's intent. According to part of your comment these people are "not truly familiar", but without that surfeit of "P" all over it we wouldn't know. My comment was based on an actual conversation heard in the field while working with what is potentially HIPAA data.

As for the parent post, the thought in my mind was is it a mistake? is it a troll? is it a mistake and they thought it was funny so they didn't correct it? I'm willing to give them a tip o' th' hat for the inadvertent glimpse into the bland certitude of inaccuracy.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#258

Post by m3047 »

m3047 wrote: post #176
tim333 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The HIPPA rules on health data are fairly strict, otherwise your doctor, hospital and so on could already be doing wrong. Personally I have a dumb TV, car, doorbell and fridge so not much spying there. The phone I'm less sure of.

Working at the edge of cybersecurity and privacy, you've just stepped in it: there is no "Health Insurance Portability and Privacy Act". It's the "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act" (HIPAA). (And I see that noone corrects you below. [edit -- actually a few people do, or the comments are continuing]) Gravity is a fairly strict law too. Maybe you should review what it covers, what it doesn't. The Act…

If anyone wants to argue or discuss hypotheticals, how about this:

"Patient X's head was caught in a drop forge, and now they need to get four CAT scans a day."

How does HIPAA apply to this statement, how would you anonymize it, and how effective would those measures be against de-anonymization given the obvious rarity of the situation? Or is something like this simply never to be discussed?

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#259

Post by MichaelZuo »

dmix wrote: post #243
janandonly wrote: post #238

Spending 25% of your working hours on “paperwork” sounds about correct for just about everybody who’s had a desk job the last 100 years. I’m not saying it’s a good thing and I’m not saying I’m happy about it. Just that it is so, not just for the medical profession. So what’s the fuss?

> I’m not saying it’s a good thing and I’m not saying I’m happy about it. > Just that it is so, > So what’s the fuss? This sort of attitude would make the world never progress. The fuss is a highly trained specialist who is constantly in short supply is spending a quarter of their time doing work not entirely connected with their speciality. In an efficient system there should be a division of labour to another lower…

The scribe adds communication and interpretation overhead, they also can make mistakes, etc., so it's not at all clear it would improve overall outcomes per dollar spent.

Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job

#260

Post by resource_waste »

twotwotwo2 wrote: post #250
resource_waste wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You think you’ll be able to recruit more people into medicine by reducing compensation You don't need to recruit more, there is an abundant supply of people who want it. >Residency as “profit” is a stretch. Physicians are funny, a fantastic wage for the lower-middle class is considered 'treading water'. And its for education. Something every other degree pays for. >I’m not sure how it increases the number of people…

Residents should absolutely be paid. Years of often times reaching 80 hours/week, treating patients, performing procedures, writing notes - all is valuable labor. It is like saying we won't pay you for the first several years of your first dev job because it is primarily a ramp up / educational period.

What is true:

The labor isnt valuable thus cannot be billed and needs to be taken via taxes. It also means that whatever people are doing in residency, they don't need residency for. Licensure bullshit.

The labor is valuable and doesnt need to be taken via taxes.

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