Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The purge of German science in 1933

privatdozent.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 262 posts

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#251

Post by RecycledEle »

Here is a purported list of authors banned in Germany in 1933:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_banned_in_Nazi...

A Alfred Adler Hermann Adler Max Adler Raoul Auernheimer

B Bertolt Brecht Otto Bauer Vicki Baum Johannes R. Becher Richard Beer-Hofmann Hilaire Belloc Walter Benjamin Robert Hugh Benson Walter A. Berendsohn Ernst Bloch Felix Braun Bertolt Brecht Willi Bredel Hermann Broch Ferdinand Bruckner Edmund Burke

C G. K. Chesterton

D Dorothy Day Ludwig Dexheimer[3] Alfred Döblin John Dos Passos

E Einstein's official 1921 portrait after receiving the Nobel Prize in Physics Albert Ehrenstein Albert Einstein Carl Einstein Friedrich Engels Erasmus

F Sigmund Freud Lion Feuchtwanger F. Scott Fitzgerald Marieluise Fleißer Leonhard Frank Anna Freud Sigmund Freud Egon Friedell

G Edward Gibbon André Gide Ernst Glaeser William Godwin Emma Goldman Claire Goll Oskar Maria Graf George Grosz

H Ernest Hemingway Ernst Haeckel Radclyffe Hall Jaroslav Hašek Walter Hasenclever Raoul Hausmann Heinrich Heine Ernest Hemingway Theodor Herzl Hermann Hesse Magnus Hirschfeld J. Edgar Hoover Jakob van Hoddis Ödön von Horvath Karl Hubbuch David Hume Aldous Huxley

I Vera Inber

J Hans Henny Jahnn Thomas Jefferson Georg Jellinek

K Franz Kafka in 1910 Franz Kafka Georg Kaiser Mascha Kaleko Hermann Kantorowicz Erich Kästner Karl Kautsky Hans Kelsen Alfred Kerr Irmgard Keun John Maynard Keynes Klabund Heinrich Kley Annette Kolb Paul Kornfeld Siegfried Kracauer Karl Kraus Peter Kropotkin Adam Kuckhoff

L Portrait of Jack London, taken between 1906 and 1916 Else Lasker-Schüler Vladimir Lenin C. S. Lewis Karl Liebknecht Jack London Ernst Lothar Emil Ludwig Rosa Luxemburg

M Thomas Mann in the early period of his writing career Joseph de Maistre André Malraux Heinrich Mann Klaus Mann Thomas Mann[4] Mao Zedong Hans Marchwitza Ludwig Marcuse Karl Marx Vladimir Mayakovsky Walter Mehring Thomas Merton E.C. Albrecht Meyenberg Gustav Meyrink Ludwig von Mises Thomas More Erich Mühsam Robert Musil Taryn Moses

N Alfred Neumann Robert Neumann John Henry Newman

O Carl von Ossietzky in Esterwegen concentration camp (1934). Flannery O'Connor George Orwell Carl von Ossietzky Ouida

P Marcel Proust Thomas Paine Hertha Pauli Adelheid Popp Marcel Proust

R Erich Maria Remarque in Davos, 1929. Fritz Reck-Malleczewen Gustav Regler Wilhelm Reich Erich Maria Remarque Karl Renner Joachim Ringelnatz Joseph Roth Jean-Jacques Rousseau

S Rudolf Steiner around 1891/92, etching by Otto Fröhlich Nelly Sachs Felix Salten Rahel Sanzara Arthur Schnitzler Alvin Schwartz Anna Seghers Walter Serner Fulton Sheen Ignazio Silone Adam Smith Joseph Stalin Rudolf Steiner Carl Sternheim

T J.R.R. Tolkien Ernst Toller Friedrich Torberg B. Traven Leon Trotsky Kurt Tucholsky Mark Twain

V Voltaire

W H. G. Wells circa 1918 Jakob Wassermann Armin T. Wegner Simone Weil H. G. Wells Franz Werfel Oscar Wilde Eugen Gottlob Winkler Friedrich Wolf

Z Carl Zuckmayer Arnold Zweig Stefan Zweig

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#252

Post by reissbaker »

Kranar wrote: post #248
reissbaker wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could read past the first paragraph you would find: > Although the term "antisemitism" did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is also applied to previous and later anti-Jewish incidents. Notable instances of antisemitic persecution include the Rhineland massacres in 1096; the Edict of Expulsion in 1290; the European persecution of Jews during the Black Death, between 1348 and 1351; the massa…

No dispute about that, antisemitism as a term to describe persecution of Jews certainly is used to apply to instances that took place 1000s of years ago. That does not mean that antisemitism didn't change, with different forms emerging with different excuses. Hatred of a group of people often precedes rationales for that hatred, excuses are made after the fact. That doesn't change the fact that hatred towards Jews as…

I am simply disputing the original claim that "anti-Semitism as we know today is very much rooted in racial science (well, "science") of the 19th century. Before that it was an anti-religious thing: anti-Judaism, which was a markedly different and similar to Anti-Catholicism, anti-Protestantism, and things like that."

Antisemitism predates the 19th century, and not all hatred of Jews prior to the 19th century was "similar to Anti-Catholicism, anti-Protestantism, and things like that." While there is a term "anti-Judaism" used by historians to describe religious strife similar to anti-Catholicism, the term "antisemitism" isn't limited to the 19th century and later, and not all hatred and oppression of Jews prior to the 19th century was simply anti-Judaism.

For example, during the Black Death, Jews were blamed for outbreaks and were mass-murdered, with no attempts at conversion at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews_during_the...

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#253

Post by pasabagi »

octopoc wrote: post #238
pasabagi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd have to be a bit of an expert to understand these results, just because of words like 'intelligence', that could mean anything, really, and I think accounting for 20% of the 50% heritability of intelligence is not exactly blowing the question out of the water. All the same, I guess I am out of date (in 2017, they were getting 1% - perhaps in 2030, they will be up to 50%? Or back down to 2%?) In general,…

True, intelligence is not simple. But no matter how complex it is, the difference between an IQ of 100 and an IQ of 70 is undeniably a difference in intelligence. The difference between a society with an average IQ of 100 and a society with an average IQ of 70 is one of intelligence. That's why, for example, any policy that allows emigrations from IQ 70 societies to to Western countries, which usually average around…

I mean, nationality is obviously an enviromental factor, right? There's no 'german gene'. Ethnicities like 'French' don't actually exist in genes. So even if there is this nation-by-nation IQ variation, it shouldn't matter if you let people live where they want.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#254

Post by pasabagi »

EnigmaFlare wrote: post #249
pasabagi wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general the thing people find obnoxious about this kind of argument is that both 'race' and 'IQ' have their origin in eugenics, but are meaningless in genetics. The genetic variation across one race (say black) is much greater than the variation between races. There are no well-established genetic predictors of IQ. So, even if you do find evidence that there is a statistical correlation between these two unscienti…

Finding evidence to be obnoxious because of political associations is anti-science. You could make a moral argument that humans shouldn't be allowed to know certain things because we can't be trusted with that knowledge, but that's separate from trying to understand reality. > The genetic variation across one race (say black) is much greater than the variation between races. Why did you say that? Are you implying tha…

So IQ is a word used to describe the results of a bunch of tests first established by eugenicists in the late 19th century, and has no scientific extraction whatsoever. Genetics is a field of science, and you can identify groups that carry particular genes. However, the 'races' don't map to distinct genetic groups, which is very unsurprising: the 'races' or 'ethnicities' are just administrative or cultural groupings from the 19th century.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#255

Post by defrost »

octopoc wrote: post #238
pasabagi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd have to be a bit of an expert to understand these results, just because of words like 'intelligence', that could mean anything, really, and I think accounting for 20% of the 50% heritability of intelligence is not exactly blowing the question out of the water. All the same, I guess I am out of date (in 2017, they were getting 1% - perhaps in 2030, they will be up to 50%? Or back down to 2%?) In general,…

True, intelligence is not simple. But no matter how complex it is, the difference between an IQ of 100 and an IQ of 70 is undeniably a difference in intelligence. The difference between a society with an average IQ of 100 and a society with an average IQ of 70 is one of intelligence. That's why, for example, any policy that allows emigrations from IQ 70 societies to to Western countries, which usually average around…

> The difference between a society with an average IQ of 100 and a society with an average IQ of 70 is one of intelligence.

Strong claim, hard no.

In 20th century scientific records that's about the difference between pre WW German country schools and the same regions in the later part of WWII under siege and under supplied.

That large difference has been attributed to nutrition rather than intelligence given the same genes, the same schools, the same society, etc.

> True, intelligence is not simple.

At yet there you are, mere sentences later, over simplying it and ignoring significant confounding factors. Deliberate malfeasance, oblivious blind ignorance, ... ?

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#256

Post by paganel »

reissbaker wrote: post #243
paganel wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't count the current territory of Spain up until the late 1400s as "proper" Western European, in fact most of the histories of Spain do not dwell on the history of Al-Andalus in the 14th century for too long, if at all. > Spain is about as West as you can go and still be in Europe... Geographically, of course, but in this type of historical discourse geography isn't the ultimate decider. Notice how Northern cou…

This is once again so wrong it's incredible. History of Spain not including 1492 , the year Columbus set sail? Really? The beginning of European colonialism of the Americas is ignored by "most of the histories" of Europe and Spain? By the way, historians refer to 1400s as the 15th century, not the 14th century. FYI. That's how century counting works. And there was no Al Andalus at that point, either; the last trace o…

Yes, at the end of the 1400s Spain and Portugal were regarded as the "periphery" of Western Europe, they had just gotten "in" more or less as a result of La Reconquista and of the Aragon kings having started doing their thing in the Southern part of Italian peninsula in the 1400s (especially Napoli) but nothing more than that.

And I was referring to the 14th century not in connection to 1492 (because, as a fact, I do know that 1492 was in the 15th century, even though I do like the Italians calling it "il Quattrocento", but I digress), but to the Spanish 14th century being outside the civilization of Western Europe, which it was, because in the 14th century most of Spain was still civilizational Arab in the parts that counted. During that time Granada was the 3rd largest city in geographical Europe, while Cordoba was 9th largest (going by wikipedia [1]), and yet you don't see that many mentions of them when it comes to the history of the European Middle Ages. Which is to say that back in the Spanish 1300s, when the Jewish presence was still of importance in Spain, the then territory of Spain was not civilizational European.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_citie....)

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#257

Post by nec4b »

wolverine876 wrote: post #242
nec4b wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woke people believe math is racist. They get people banned or fired from universities. I mean there have been N-treads about the latest woke idiocy on campuses across the states here on HN, why are some people always pretending it doesn't exist?

> Woke people believe math is racist. Could you give us an example? I know about racism issues associated with math education, but I've never heard that 'mathematics is racist'. > They get people banned or fired from universities. What does that have to do with denying or rejecting science? Also, sometimes people get fired for legitimate reasons; the fact that they were fired is not a sign of problems. > I mean there…

>> Could you give us an example? I know about racism issues associated with math education, but I've never heard that 'mathematics is racist'.

Why are you referring to yourself in plural? Regarding your question, you can literal copy paste what you quoted into your favorite search engine and you will get a ton of hits. But I'm sure you are well aware of it already, since you are a frequent commenter on cultural war issues here on HN.

>> What does that have to do with denying or rejecting science?

Since when firing faculty staff for ideological nonsense has nothing to do with rejecting science?

>> Also, sometimes people get fired for legitimate reasons; the fact that they were fired is not a sign of problems.

This type of argument where you write some truism to downplay victims is not cool.

>>I'm sure you know that there are powerful tides of misinformation and disinformation on the Internet - about climate change and vaccines, for example. Lots of repetition doesn't make something true. In fact, science is founded on the opposite: One person's verifiable facts are believed before the entire world's repetition.

Of course, but you can say that about anything. So what is the point of your argument? Why did you even bother to comment on something you by your own admission don't know exists and couldn't even be bothered to look it up on the internet.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#258

Post by reissbaker »

paganel wrote: post #256
reissbaker wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is once again so wrong it's incredible. History of Spain not including 1492 , the year Columbus set sail? Really? The beginning of European colonialism of the Americas is ignored by "most of the histories" of Europe and Spain? By the way, historians refer to 1400s as the 15th century, not the 14th century. FYI. That's how century counting works. And there was no Al Andalus at that point, either; the last trace o…

Yes, at the end of the 1400s Spain and Portugal were regarded as the "periphery" of Western Europe, they had just gotten "in" more or less as a result of La Reconquista and of the Aragon kings having started doing their thing in the Southern part of Italian peninsula in the 1400s (especially Napoli) but nothing more than that. And I was referring to the 14th century not in connection to 1492 (because, as a fact, I do…

I'm not sure why you keep trying to talk about 1300s Spain when the expulsion of the Jews from Spain happened in 1492, which is in the 15th century and very nearly in the 16th. Jews were clearly a thing in Spain in the 15th century, and Spain was a part of Europe.

And they weren't just in Spain; there were large Jewish communities in the Holy Roman Empire throughout most of the period you're claiming they weren't a thing in Europe — in fact, Yiddish is famously a fusion of Hebrew and High German — and Louis XIV issued letters of patent to the Jewish community in Alsace in the 1600s. Many of the Jews expelled from Spain were initially welcomed by the Papal States, who already had existing Jewish populations — until they were expelled from the Papal States by Pius V in the 16th century. Venice oppressed their Jewish population brutally and confined them to ghettoes, but of course, they existed — otherwise there would be no ghettoes. Not to mention the massive Jewish presence in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which was one of the largest European states in the 1500s, although given your backtracking to "Western Europe" perhaps you don't consider the Grand Duchy to be "civilizational European." And in the 1600s, Denmark began explicitly encouraging Jewish immigration from the rest of Europe, due to the Danish fiscal crisis from the Thirty Years War, with hundreds of thousands of Jews moving.

You are simply wrong.

Honestly, given the level of Israel/Palestine conspiracy takes on Jews never having existed in the Middle East, or having no presence there until the 20th century (also wrong), I'm somehow shocked to find someone with a theory that Jews didn't exist in Europe prior to the 19th century.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#259

Post by EnigmaFlare »

silverquiet wrote: post #157
EnigmaFlare wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing wrong with wanting it, but a research paper is not the place to express personal opinions on how other people should behave. It's not a result they got from their own work, just rhetoric they know they're supposed to repeat, perhaps for safety of their careers, or perhaps because they unethically want to use their platform for activism.

I've accepted that we are going to destroy ourselves and there is essentially nothing to be done at this point, but isn't that generally considered a bad thing? I'm surprised that endeavoring to continue the existence of humanity is so controversial.

Climate change is no threat to the existence of humanity. You've been misled by extremists.

Re: The purge of German science in 1933

#260

Post by EnigmaFlare »

pasabagi wrote: post #254
EnigmaFlare wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding evidence to be obnoxious because of political associations is anti-science. You could make a moral argument that humans shouldn't be allowed to know certain things because we can't be trusted with that knowledge, but that's separate from trying to understand reality. > The genetic variation across one race (say black) is much greater than the variation between races. Why did you say that? Are you implying tha…

So IQ is a word used to describe the results of a bunch of tests first established by eugenicists in the late 19th century, and has no scientific extraction whatsoever. Genetics is a field of science, and you can identify groups that carry particular genes. However, the 'races' don't map to distinct genetic groups, which is very unsurprising: the 'races' or 'ethnicities' are just administrative or cultural groupings…

The origin isn't relevant to whether it's valid or not.

No, ethnicities are absolutely not just administrative or cultural groupings. You've clearly done no research into this topic whatsoever and are just repeating some misinformation you got fooled by. Even the classic races which are unnecessarily crude by modern standards do actually partly correspond to distinct genetic groups. We can now classify ethnicities at a much finer level of detail and they're still distinct genetic groups.

Ironically given the article this is under, IQ was considered to be dirty Jewish science by the Nazis, probably because it showed Jews to be superior.

Post reply on HN