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Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

terraformindustries.wordpress.com

251–260 of 331 posts

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#251
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to see nuclear do this, but the challenges to getting nuclear built are myriad. Regulatory burdens, cost to build reactors, painfully slow learning rate for nuclear reactor design and buildout. Solar, while certainly not ideal, is comparatively trivial to build out. Functionally you buy and lay out cheap panels. Far smaller political challenges. Some friction around land use and interconnect, but compared…

The best part about using nuclear for fuel generation is that you get to sidestep the biggest problem with nuclear - when you build a power plant you want to build it near people (who may object on safety grounds), but you can build a DAC fuel generator way out in the middle of nowhere. Even better, you could build your nuclear DAC fuel generator in an old natural gas field, where there's ready-made transportation in…

>The best part about using nuclear for fuel generation

The main point of this operation is to utilize free surplus energy from solar and wind to store fuel for days where solar and wind can't produce enough. Free-as-in-beer surplus, since the energy would otherwise be wasted or sold at negative prices, like what we have been seeing lately in certain markets.

Nuclear can always produce electricity, so converting to fuel has no benefits it's just a loss compared to using the electricity directly. Also, nuclear electricity is never free but always very expensive because you need a large amount of very highly educated people and expensive infrastructure to deal with it.

>you can build a DAC fuel generator way out in the middle of nowhere.

If things go very badly with a nuclear reactor, there's no such thing as a "middle of nowhere" that's far enough away. The fallout from Chernobyl made certain foods as far away as the arctic circle unsuitable for human consumption.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#253

Their minimalist website is awesome: https://terraformindustries.com/ complete with plain text chemical equations. "Why does our website look like this? At TI we believe we can change the world by displacing fossil hydrocarbon production at global scale. Like our website, our machines are simple so we can build millions of them as quickly as possible. Our website embodies our cultural commitment to allocating resourc…

“Like our machines, our website looks awful on a phone.” Someone could’ve spent literally 5 minutes making this look reasonable on the world’s most popular web browsing device form facto, whilst still retaining the site’s retro virtue signalling aesthetic, AND it wouldn’t have taken away from their ‘core mission’ or whatever. If you don’t care, don’t have a website at all.

I only looked at the linked article and the homepage so maybe diagrams and such look worse, but those pages look fabulous on phone to me. I wish more sites looked like this one.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#254

What are some applications where its worth taking the highest grade energy (electricity) and turning it into a lower grade (eg liquid fuels), rather than electrifying the application? Electricity to motion is significantly more efficient per input energy than burning fuel->heat-> gaseous expansion->drive a piston->convert to rotation chain. What am I missing about this?

Applications that need heat. Metallurgy, for instance.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#255
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power-to-hydrogen is often attacked for being inefficient, but the alternative presented by the anti-hydrogen people for dealing with seasonal variations and long dark-calm periods is to just overbuild solar and wind massively -- in which case, most of the time power from these is just being curtailed. Apparently using this excess power with 0% efficiency is preferable to using it with nonzero efficiency making hydro…

The issue is that hydrogen makes no sense except for transportation fuel, where it also makes no sense. There are other options for stationary energy storage, and hydrogen is amongst the worst. i.e. if we can tolerate high losses, iron-air flow batteries are a much more reasonable option[1] The thing is you pay for all of that pretty heavily - it's all more expensive with other drawbacks, but it's not nearly the comp…

For long term energy storage, minimizing the capital cost of energy storage capacity is paramount. Round trip efficiency is not.

On that relevant metric, hydrogen is very hard to beat, particularly if proper geology is available (salt formations for solution mined storage cavities). Costs less than $1/kWh are possible.

Artificially heated geothermal may be competitive on that metric, but its RTE is likely to be even lower.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#256
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries are good at smoothing out daily or even weekly variations but do not make any sense whatsoever for seasonal power storage. It's ridiculously cost ineffective to charge a battery in July only to discharge it in December. 60% roundtrip is cost effective if you're synthesizing when the sun is blazing and the wind is blowing hard and burning it when wind, solar and batteries have all tapped out. Thats especiall…

Is that more effective than the traditional, "store the energy as kinetic potential energy by pushing water uphill, so you can let it go down the hill later" approach.

For storing energy cheaply for months at a time and transporting it across large distances, yes.

Pumped storage has ~90% roundtrip efficiency, good at storing energy for days or weeks but maxes out easily. The energy density of water pushed uphill is very low.

I think we should be pushing a lot more water uphill, but I see it as an alternative to or competitor to grid-scale batteries and a complement to syngas.

Syngas production will probably be most useful if built next door to a wind or solar farm and used to siphon off energy which is currently curtailed when the grid is maxed out.

It can then be easily stored in enormous quantities and easily transported by ship to anywhere in the world that needs it.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#258
post #252

There's got to be a catch to all this. If there was no catch, this would be the hottest startup in the world by far.

I'm going to post my favorite graph, it's called the "MAC graph". It shows, in itemized investments, how much it will cost to reach net-zero emissions for the U.S.

Instead of time, the X axis is how much you are willing to invest, in $/Ton of CO2

The types of investments are sorted by their respective cost ; the later they appear on the X axis, the lower their name is on the Y axis

You can observe by yourself here that direct carbon capture is all the way to the bottom of the list

https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/2021-07/MACgraph_sim...

Each dollar invested in Terraform would net you 100x the results if you invested it in wind, solar, nuclear, electric vehicles or heat pumps

Here's Hank Green talking about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dRgCsZ1q7g

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#259
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of natural gas on the Henry Hub is somewhere around $300/ton. A ton of natural gas requires 2.75 tons of CO2, so the cost of CO2 capture has to be well below $110/ton (and that ignores the cost of the hydrogen and the equipment for doing the methane synthesis.) They must be assuming large increases in natural gas prices or large CO2 taxes. I think it will be much easier to get the price/BTU of H2 down below…

I went to double-check your math and I don't see $300/ton on Henry hub.. the units are a little weird as it looks like the price is per million btu which is... 50 pounds? of lng, so to get the per-ton price we take the Henry hub price and multiply by 40 (2000 pounds per ton divided by 50 pounds per million btu)? with a 52-week high of 3.63, this would get to $177 per ton, which seems short of your $300/ton? Anyway, I…

I think you're closer to right. I started with a wrong figure that I didn't double check. Thanks for catching the error.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#260
post #14

One can make natural gas from CO2 captured from air and with hydrogen electrolysed form water. But then one has to ask: why not just use hydrogen directly and skip the inefficiency and cost of direct air capture of CO2 and of making methane? If one is dead set on making a carbon-containing synfuel, why methane and not something more storable, like methanol or higher hydrocarbons? Or, why not use the hydrogen to deoxy…

Because the economics of storing and transporting hydrogen are just not great. You need a lot of energy and infrastructure to do it. And while the density per kg is great. The density by volume is absolutely terrible because hydrogen is the smallest and lightest molecule. In liquid and gas form it's nearly 3x the volume of methane (for the same amount of energy). If you are transporting it in compressed gas form (lik…

The economics of storing hydrogen for long periods is just fine, compared to the economics of storing energy in batteries for long periods.
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