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Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

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Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#251
post #243
post #190

This is pretty sad to read. Before Covid, the Amazon Go store experience was phenomenal. All the convenience of a 7-Eleven but with the pricing of a normal grocery store. The food options were really good and the BlueApron style meal-kits were amazing. The Alexa integration was also nice for being able to just verbally ask what's the next step on a recipe while you're busy stirring or chopping things. When it rolled…

I'm glad it's gone for good, if the process really works like how it's described in the article. Thousands of poor souls doing terrible pointless menial work just so that a few entitled customers can avoid the clunky self checkout (eww- the horror!). The entitlement of the west has no bounds really.

It wasn’t pointless, they were training an AI that never fully worked. It’s ultimately the same kind of thing as people monitoring self driving cars, a boring task that may be pointless or possibly remove a lot of drudgery longer term.

According to The Information, 700 out of 1,000 Just Walk Out sales required human reviewers as of 2022. This widely missed Amazon’s internal goals of reaching less than 50 reviews per 1,000 sales. Amazon called this characterization inaccurate, and disputes how many purchases require reviews.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular grocery stores have really gone downhill as well. Whenever I shop, there’s at most 1 cashier doing checkout and usually 0 (only self-checkout being open). I consider myself pretty proficient about knowing what sets off the machine but still set it off 60% of the time (about some weight imbalance etc) that requires an attendant to come fix manually. I’ve gotten to dread the grocery store trips as they require…

Yeah, the "if anything goes wrong you now stand around with your thumb up your ass while one employee makes their way from broken kiosk to broken kiosk to manually resolve the problems" model has soured me on self-checkout. I find I have a very low "dealing with this bullshit" limit, to the point that if I have trouble I'm likely to just say fuck it and walk out of the store without completing my purchase.

It's really tunable and some stores are tuned to "Fort Knox" where even a fly landing UNKNOWN ITEM IN BAGGING AREA.

Others are so loose that you don't even have to take things out of your cart, scan and pay and go.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#253
post #194

Uniqlo (in Japan and at least in SF) has a cool checkout method. You drop your clothes into a big bin (I’ve always done it one piece at a time, didn’t think to do all at once) and it adds up all your items. I’ve used this maybe 8 times, 100% accurate so far. Not sure how it works but I guessed RFID and quick Google appears to confirm: https://www.wsj.com/articles/uniqlos-parent-company-bets-big...

As far as I can tell, every Uniqlo has this. And you’re right, this is by far the best checkout experience. It’s what Amazon wishes they’d built.

I can’t imagine there’s that much untapped profit in the grocery business that Amazon could turn a profit with such an expensive and unreliable mess like Just Walk Out and I find it’s so typical Amazon to find out that the man behind the curtain is actually a bunch of offshore workers in India.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#254
post #190

This is pretty sad to read. Before Covid, the Amazon Go store experience was phenomenal. All the convenience of a 7-Eleven but with the pricing of a normal grocery store. The food options were really good and the BlueApron style meal-kits were amazing. The Alexa integration was also nice for being able to just verbally ask what's the next step on a recipe while you're busy stirring or chopping things. When it rolled…

> Though it seemed completely automated, Just Walk Out relied on more than 1,000 people in India watching and labeling videos to ensure accurate checkouts. The cashiers were simply moved off-site, and they watched you as you shopped.

Wow - I did not know this. This makes it all a whole lot less impressive and interesting that it was just people off shore watching you.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#255

There was a startup, Standard Cognition, that offered the same experience, but I checked their website ( https://standard.ai/ ) and it seems they have given up on it too. Edit: Looking over their marketing videos now and taking a more optimistic approach, is "just walk out" technology all that useful? It seems they pivoted to a product where is much clearer what the value add is (Predictive analytics, loss prevention…

Well from the article it's clear that this camera+ai based detection of purchases never worked for Amazon. They had to rely on Indian contractors watching people remotely. It never technically worked, and even if it did, then yeah I agree that it wouldn't make economic sense. Cameras with that level of fidelity and with 100% coverage, tracking N customers at once, are probably a huge capital expense. And all for slig…

> And all for slightly faster shopping.

Wanted to comment on this part -- Prime itself was nothing more than faster shipping, though yes the difference between 4-6 weeks standard vs 2-days was massive (not just slightly faster). But the point is, Amazon excels at identifying friction points that others have just accepted as industry norms, but which, if unblocked, could actually meaningfully shift consumer behaviors.

Go might be a failed experiment, but "slightly faster shopping" is probably an unfair trivialization of what the experiment hypothesis was really about. A core thesis of Amazon in general is basically, to fanatically remove any unnecessary extra steps/friction/bureaucracy/etc., between a consumer and their act of purchasing.

For another example, think back to why Amazon cared so much about the 1-click patent -- legal validity aside, the idea that you can have 1-click checkout, was pretty revolutionarily customer-obsessed, compared to the average online shopping experience of the early 2000s.

And in fact, the natural progression from 1-click, is of course going down to "0 clicks", which is what things like, subscribe-and-save, memberships/subscriptions, or Alexa/Echo styling clothes for you, are meant to do -- they are meant to shift the consumer's mental model of shopping away from emphasizing the build-up from browsing into the climax moment of then clicking to purchase, to instead make the actual purchase decision more of a hidden-in-the-background/automatic thing, instead of a foreground conscious choice.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#256
post #247
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad it's gone for good, if the process really works like how it's described in the article. Thousands of poor souls doing terrible pointless menial work just so that a few entitled customers can avoid the clunky self checkout (eww- the horror!). The entitlement of the west has no bounds really.

> Thousands of poor souls doing terrible pointless menial work just so that a few entitled customers can avoid the clunky self checkout Wanting to make your life more convenient and pleasant isn't "entitled". 99% of jobs are things people would rather not be doing (otherwise you wouldn't be getting paid for it). The point is that we can allocate this work in a way that minimizes the amount of time everyone has to spe…

If you don't like going to the grocery store pay someone to go get them for you. Thousands of people remotely "following" you around and scanning things for you, just so that you can avoid using self checkout sounds ridiculous and excessive.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#257
My concerns about this were theft, mistakes, cost to operate, and opportunity costs.

Theft is an obvious one. It happens in self checkouts in many ways. We had people come into our store to just leave with baskets of stuff, load their pockets, take stuff from one box to put in a cheaper one they bought, or even put raw eggs and meat in their pockets. That was with a ton of workers in the store looking out for thieves.

Errors could result in us being charged for what we didn’t buy. The amount could be lower or higher. Some people go through their whole receipt double checking it. Many of us just watch it as they ring it up, deal with it there, and stop thinking about it once we leave. Could this impact peace of mind?

Cost to operate seemed like it might be high. Aldi and Costco show a traditional self-checkout can be cheap to operate on top of serving high-end customers. (See theft/shrink, though.) I figured the machine learning alternatives would cost thousands to tens of thousands a unit for combinations of cameras, servers, and licensed software. They’d also need to be monitored and/or trained by humans which this article just confirmed.

I was also worried about fraud. My company bought a solution that monitored customers with infrared cameras, monitored checkouts, and predicted how many registers we needed. That was a terrible system that hurt us more than it helped. We were required to act like it worked to please those who spent hundreds of millions on it. I wondered how often such dishonest referrals helped the supplier sell them. Made me skeptical about more AI.

Finally, the human touch that comes with good cashiers increases customer satisfaction. Our customers often looked forward to seeing us. For some, we were the only or best social contact they got that week. Others liked getting out of the house for a long period of time. Sometimes they’d have us push products and services which, normally a negative for all, is largely how they drove up credit card use and feedback on the customer tracker.

For those reasons, I advised against using AI for anything other than helping employees do their jobs more easily. If for that, that it would be a support tool instead of trying to replace skilled, decision makers. Then, simply invest those millions to hundreds of millions in the employees. Worked for Costco and Publix. :)

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#258
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. Scan-as-you-shop has been around for at least a decade at this point I think, at least in some parts of the world. ICA (supermarket in Sweden) been doing it for as long as I can remember, and I came across this image of the scanner being used at the store on Mediawiki: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:S…

All the supermarkets where I live (English Midlands) have scan as you shop. I stopped using it after they required using their loyalty cards/apps to use it.

apps are a new thing. before, when it was just a phone number, 867-5309 in the us would usually work to get the discount while being usefully trackable

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#259

I think that the scan-as-you-shop style systems are definitely the next realistic step for grocery stores. I really like using them, as they allow me to put stuff directly into my bags as I go. I think a further improvement on a system like that would be to use the cheap RFID tech (UHF EPC) so that when you walk through the anti-theft barriers, the system knows exactly what you got, and then there's no need to scan a…

Weigh each customer/cart going in and going out. Make sure the weight of each item is a prime number. And... remove any restrooms from the store.

2+3=5. In general, the weight idea is impossible. For any two items, you can find the LCM in units of the precision of the scale, and then you won't know if they got LCM/a of one or LCM/b of the other.

Re: Amazon ditches 'just walk out' checkouts at its grocery stores

#260
post #194

Uniqlo (in Japan and at least in SF) has a cool checkout method. You drop your clothes into a big bin (I’ve always done it one piece at a time, didn’t think to do all at once) and it adds up all your items. I’ve used this maybe 8 times, 100% accurate so far. Not sure how it works but I guessed RFID and quick Google appears to confirm: https://www.wsj.com/articles/uniqlos-parent-company-bets-big...

Self checkout systems based on RFID are very convenient, quick and quite accurate compared to self checkout on grocery stores'l. The main problem on groceries is that the tags are expensive compared to the product (tags prices are in the order of tens of cents depending on manufacturer and size) Disclaimer: I work on a RFID reader manufacturing company

Any ideas whats stopping it from becoming much cheaper? RFIDs on everything seem like a good move in the robotics age.
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